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On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning: The United States’ support for Ukraine is collapsing under Donald Trump’s second term—and with it, the global system of peace and security that has protected Americans for decades. David explains what Trump’s latest actions reveal about his motivations, and why Ukraine’s survival may now depend on the outcome of the 2024 election.
在戴维·弗鲁姆（David Frum）节目的这一集中，大西洋的戴维·弗鲁姆（David Frum）发出警告：美国对乌克兰的支持正在唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）的第二任期下崩溃，并随之而来，这是几十年来保护美国人的全球和平与安全体系。大卫解释了特朗普的最新动作揭示了他的动机，以及为什么乌克兰的生存现在可能取决于2024年大选的结果。
Then David is joined by the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine and now Democratic congressional candidate Bridget Brink, who served under both President Biden and President Trump. They discuss the true stakes of the war, the failure of the Trump administration to develop or execute a coherent Ukraine policy, and why Brink ultimately chose to resign her post. She offers a firsthand account of life in Kyiv during the early days of the full-scale invasion, the dangers facing American diplomats in war zones, and the institutional breakdowns now threatening U.S. foreign policy from within.
然后，戴维（David）由前美国驻乌克兰大使和现在的民主党国会候选人布里奇特·布林克（Bridget Brink）加入，后者在拜登总统和特朗普总统任职。他们讨论了战争的真正利益，特朗普政府未能制定或执行连贯的乌克兰政策，以及为什么布林克最终选择辞职。在全面入侵的早期，她提供了基辅生活的第一手叙述，在战区中面临的美国外交官面临的危险以及机构的崩溃现在威胁着内部的美国外交政策。
The following is a transcript of the episode:
以下是该集的成绩单：
David Frum: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The David Frum Show. I’m David Frum, a staff writer at The Atlantic. I’m speaking to you today from the offices of The Picton Gazette, one of the oldest continuously published newspapers in all of Canada. It’s Canada Day week here in Canada, and many of our usual facilities are closed. So I’m very grateful to the editors and publishers of the Gazette for making their offices available to me to record this opening discussion.
大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）：您好，欢迎来到大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）秀的另一集。我是大西洋的员工作家戴维·弗鲁姆（David Frum）。我今天是从Picton Gazette的办公室与您交谈的，Picton Gazette是整个加拿大最古老的报纸之一。这是加拿大在加拿大的加拿大周周，我们许多通常的设施已关闭。因此，我非常感谢《宪报》的编辑和出版商使我的办公室可供我记录这次开幕讨论。
My guest this week will be Ambassador Bridget Brink, who was appointed by President Biden as ambassador to Ukraine and then served under President Trump until her resignation earlier this year. Ambassador Brink is now running for Congress for the Democratic nomination in Michigan’s Seventh District. Our conversation was recorded before she made that announcement.
我的客人本周将是布里奇·布林克（Bridget Brink）大使，她被拜登总统任命为乌克兰大使，然后在特朗普总统任职，直到今年早些时候辞职。布林克大使现在正在竞选国会在密歇根州第七区的民主党提名。在她宣布这一消息之前，我们的对话是记录的。
Before I turn to our conversation about Ukraine and the struggle for independence, and about the inconsistent and unfavorable attitude of the Trump administration toward Ukraine that she observed as ambassador, I want to say a few personal words about what is at stake in this Ukrainian cause.
在我谈论有关乌克兰的谈话和争取独立的斗争以及特朗普政府对乌克兰的不一致和不利的态度，她认为她是大使，我想说一些关于乌克兰事业危险的个人话语。
The United States has built, since 1945, an extraordinary system of peace and security embracing much of the planet. It is a system from which many countries benefit, but Americans too. That Americans do not need to learn a second language in most cases; that they can travel about the world with a feeling of security; that when they do business, they do business under legal systems that are often inspired by the American example; that when they travel as tourists or students or in any capacity, they can put down a credit card, and if they have a dispute, have that credit card dispute adjudicated, usually under American law—all of those things that we take for granted as we move about a world that is ever more accommodating to the American way of life and to American interests, all of that is one of the prizes for the American investment in global peace and security.
自1945年以来，美国就建立了一种非凡的和平与安全制度，拥护大部分地球。这是许多国家从中受益的制度，但也是美国人。在大多数情况下，美国人不需要学习第二语言；他们可以以安全感环游世界；当他们开展业务时，他们会在通常受美国榜样启发的法律制度下进行业务；当他们以游客或学生或任何身份旅行时，他们可以放下一张信用卡，如果他们有争议，通常根据美国法律进行了信用卡纠纷，这是我们对美国生活方式和美国利益的全面奖品的全部奖品，这是我们对全球和安全的投资中的奖品，我们认为这是理所当然的。
Now, that system of peace and security received one of its severest tests when Russia accelerated its attack on Ukraine. The war began in 2014 with the attack on Crimea and the occupation of Crimea. But in February of 2022, Russia made a direct lunge for the capital, Kyiv. The heroism and endurance of Ukrainian soldiers beat back the Russians, and Ukraine has continued to fight for its independence to this day. This is a war not about boundaries, but about Ukraine’s sovereign existence. The Russians and President Putin, their dictator, have made it very clear that what they are offended by is that Ukraine imagines it has any right to exist as an independent nation at all.
现在，当俄罗斯加速其对乌克兰的攻击时，这种和平与安全制度获得了最严厉的测试。战争始于2014年，袭击了克里米亚和克里米亚的占领。但是在2022年2月，俄罗斯为首都基辅直接拖了。乌克兰士兵的英雄主义和耐力击败了俄罗斯人，乌克兰一直为其独立而战。这不是关于边界的战争，而是关于乌克兰的主权存在。他们的独裁者俄罗斯人和总统普京非常清楚地表明，他们被冒犯的是乌克兰认为它有没有作为一个独立国家生存的权利。
As Putin has told many people, including American interviewers—including pet American interviewers, like Tucker Carlson when Tucker Carlson interviewed Vladimir Putin—what this war is about from Putin’s point of view is that Ukraine is not a country. It’s just part of Russia. It has no history. It has no language. It has no literature. It has no right to be any kind of separate people at all. It’s little Russia, in his mind, that must be ruled forever by big Russia. The Ukrainians see it otherwise, and they have fought and struggled and died to maintain their national existence.
正如普京对许多人所说的那样，包括美国访调员在内的许多人 - 包括宠物美国访调员，例如塔克·卡尔森（Tucker Carlson），当塔克·卡尔森（Tucker Carlson）采访弗拉基米尔·普京（Vladimir Putin）时 - 从普京的角度来看，这场战争是什么是乌克兰不是一个国家。这只是俄罗斯的一部分。它没有历史。它没有语言。它没有文献。它根本没有任何独立的人。在他看来，这是俄罗斯小的，必须由大俄罗斯永远统治。乌克兰人认为这是其他的，他们进行了斗争，挣扎和死亡，以维持自己的民族存在。
Under President Biden, the president who appointed Ambassador Brink, the United States assisted Ukraine, not as fully as it should. It often seems that President Biden’s policy was to say, What does Ukraine need? Give them half, and give it late. Tanks and airplanes and other kinds of assistance always arrived too little amounts and too slow in time to turn the tide of war when the war was ready to be turned, especially in the summer of [20]23. It often seemed that there was a lack of urgency in the Biden administration, that they never took it seriously, that November ’24 would be, among other things, a referendum on Ukraine’s survival, and that if there was anything that was left undone by the United States as of November ’24, there was a real chance that the next administration, which might be Donald Trump’s, would turn off the flow of aid and doom Ukraine altogether. If the war was not won by November of 2024, it might never be won at all.
在总统拜登（Biden）的领导下，任命美国大使的总统协助了乌克兰，但没有应有的一切。拜登总统的政策似乎经常说，乌克兰需要什么？给他们一半，然后迟到。坦克和飞机和其他类型的援助总是很少到来，时间太慢，无法在战争准备好扭转时扭转战争，尤其是在[20] 23的夏天。似乎通常在拜登政府中缺乏紧迫性，他们从不认真对待这一点，24年11月，除其他外，还有一个关于乌克兰的生存的全民公决，而且如果截至’24年11月11日，美国剩下的任何事情都在美国剩下的事情上，那么下一个政府就会有一个真正的政府，这可能会成为夫妻，并将其交换为艾滋病。如果在2024年11月之前没有赢得战争，那么可能永远不会赢得胜利。
But that lack of urgency was a flaw from a generally positive policy. President Biden did seem to understand what was at stake and did want to help, even if it was never in time and never enough. But now, in the Trump presidency, we are in a very different world, a world of outright hostility to Ukraine, where Donald Trump’s goal seems to be to pressure Ukraine, sometimes risking Ukrainian lives, sometimes dooming Ukrainian lives, pressure Ukraine to a negotiated form of submission to Russia.
但缺乏紧迫性是总体上积极政策的缺陷。拜登总统似乎确实了解了危及的是什么，也想提供帮助，即使它从来没有及时，而且从来没有足够。但是现在，在特朗普总统职位上，我们处于一个非常不同的世界，这是一个对乌克兰的敌对世界，唐纳德·特朗普的目标似乎是给乌克兰施加压力，有时冒着乌克兰生命的危险，有时注定乌克兰的生活，对乌克兰的生活施加压力，迫使乌克兰对俄罗斯的提交形式。
I don’t know that we have yet or ever will get to the bottom of the reason for Donald Trump’s strange attachment to Russia. The why question—it’s been speculated about, psychological blackmail, cronyism. It’s been speculated about forever. And I have to admit, I sometimes have joined in some of the speculation, but I think always we need to have skepticism about it. We don’t know and maybe we’ll never know the why of the Trump-Russia attachment.
我不知道我们已经或曾经将唐纳德·特朗普对俄罗斯的奇怪依恋的理由达到最底层。为什么问题是关于心理勒索，裙带关系的推测。它一直被推测。我必须承认，有时我加入了一些猜测，但是我认为我们总是需要对此怀有怀疑。我们不知道，也许我们永远不会知道特朗普 - 俄罗斯依恋的原因。
But we can see the what. We can see the thing. We can see that there is something going on here that is way beyond the usual about how Americans feel about foreign dictators—a kind of something that is influencing American policy in ways that are injurious to all kinds of societies, not only Ukraine, and that has biased American policy toward the support of the goals of this aggressive dictatorship in Moscow.
但是我们可以看到什么。我们可以看到东西。我们可以看到，这里发生的事情远远超出了美国人对外国独裁者的看法，这是一种影响着美国政策的某种方式，以各种社会的伤害，不仅是乌克兰的，而且使美国政策偏向于莫斯科夫（Moscow）这一激进独裁统治的目标。
Now we find ourselves, really, in a moment of crisis. The United States has demonstrated in Iran that American power can be used. This administration has proven that all those op-eds and think pieces and campaign propaganda about Trump as a dove, as a noninterventionist were nonsense. Trump struck Iran. Right now, there are American Predator drones flying over Mexico. And many in the Trump administration, including the vice president, have talked about using American military force inside Mexico—again, with or without the permission of the Mexican government. They’re not noninterventionists. They’re not pacifists. They’re not doves. What they are are people who are hostile to the Ukrainian cause.
现在，我们确实在危机时刻发现自己。美国在伊朗证明了可以使用美国权力。该政府已经证明，所有这些专栏文章和思考有关特朗普作为鸽子的作品和竞选宣传都是胡说八道。特朗普击中了伊朗。目前，有美国捕食者无人机飞越墨西哥。包括副总统在内的特朗普政府中的许多人都谈到了在墨西哥境内使用美国军事力量的，无论是否在墨西哥政府许可的情况下，有或不未经墨西哥的允许。他们不是非干预主义者。他们不是和平主义者。他们不是鸽子。他们是对乌克兰事业充满敌意的人。
The Ukrainian cause is a great cause. It’s one that deserves respect and support from Americans, as it has gained and deserves support from America’s allies. Ukraine has done so much by itself. It has fought and struggled and defended itself, but it probably cannot win by itself. To win, it needs help. That help was forthcoming—inadequately, but forthcoming—from the Biden administration, and it’s been dialed back by the Trump administration. It needs to be a top-of-mind issue in our national discussion today.
乌克兰的事业是一个很好的原因。这是美国人的尊重和支持，因为它获得了美国盟友的支持。乌克兰本身做了很多事情。它已经战斗，挣扎和捍卫自己，但可能自己无法赢得胜利。为了获胜，它需要帮助。从拜登政府开始，这种帮助即将到来，但即将到来，这是由特朗普政府拨打的。在我们今天的全国讨论中，它必须是一个头号问题。
What can be done to help Ukraine? Why won’t Donald Trump do it? How can it be pressured to do it? In that debate, Ambassador Brink has been and will be one of the most important voices, first as a successful and effective ambassador, then as a powerful critic of the administration she served, and now as a candidate for Congress.
如何帮助乌克兰？唐纳德·特朗普为什么不这样做？怎么会被迫这样做？在这场辩论中，边缘大使曾经并将成为最重要的声音之一，首先是成功有效的大使，然后是她担任政府的有力批评者，现在是国会的候选人。
So in a few moments, my conversation with Ambassador Bridget Brink, but first: a quick break.
因此，在片刻之后，我与Bridget Brink大使的对话，但首先：快速休息。
[Music]
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Frum: Ambassador Bridget Brink, is a career diplomat, a native of Michigan, and a graduate of Kenyon College. Her service to the United States commenced during the Clinton administration. She has represented the United States in Uzbekistan, Georgia, and the Slovak Republic. In between, she rose to higher and higher positions and ranks at the State Department and on the National Security Council staff.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：布里奇·布林克（Bridget Brink）大使，是一名职业外交官，是密歇根州人，是肯尼恩学院（Kenyon College）的毕业生。她对美国的服务在克林顿政府期间开始。她曾在乌兹别克斯坦，佐治亚州和斯洛伐克共和国代表美国。在两者之间，她在国务院和国家安全委员会的工作人员中升至越来越高的职位和排名。
In February 2022, as Russian columns raced toward Kyiv to capture that Ukrainian capital, and as Russian airborne troops descended on the Kyiv airport, President Biden asked Bridget Brink to serve as his ambassador to Ukraine, an emerging war zone, one of the most dangerous posts in all of U.S. diplomacy.
2022年2月，随着俄罗斯专栏朝基辅比赛，占领了乌克兰首都，当俄罗斯空降部队降落在基辅机场时，拜登总统要求布里奇特·布林克（Bridget Brink）担任乌克兰大使，乌克兰（Ukrink）担任新兴战区的乌克兰大使，这是美国全美国外交机构中最危险的职位之一。
She was formally nominated in April of 2022 and has led the mission until earlier this year. She resigned in 2025 to protest President Trump’s persistent refusal to acknowledge Russia’s responsibility for the war Putin started.
她于2022年4月被正式提名，并领导任务直到今年初。她于2025年辞职，以抗议特朗普总统的持续拒绝承认俄罗斯对普京的战争责任。
And Ambassador Brink, thank you so much. Welcome to The David Frum Show. Let me ask you to take us back to that moment when you got the nod to serve in this historic role at this historic time. How did that happen? What was that like?
和大使边缘，非常感谢。欢迎参加大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）秀。让我请您带我们回到那一刻，当时您点头在这个历史性时期担任这个历史性角色。那是怎么发生的？那是什么？
Bridget Brink: Well, thanks David. Thanks so much for having me on. Well, I remember it like it was yesterday, but now it was more than three years ago. As you know, or probably know, we have a long process to bring new ambassadors into positions.
布里奇·布林克（Bridget Brink）：嗯，谢谢大卫。非常感谢您让我继续前进。好吧，我记得就像昨天一样，但是现在已经超过三年前了。如您所知，或者可能知道，我们有一个漫长的过程将新大使带入位置。
So I knew for a while, even before the war started, that I was the president’s candidate and had to go through the formal confirmation process. And when the war started, I got a call. And I was asked, Are you still interested in this post? Because we think we may have to close the embassy. We don’t know where the embassy will be. We don’t know what will happen with the war. What’s your position?
因此，我已经知道一段时间，甚至在战争开始之前，我还是总统的候选人，不得不经历正式的确认过程。战争开始时，我接到了电话。我被问到，您还对此帖子感兴趣吗？因为我们认为我们可能必须关闭大使馆。我们不知道大使馆会在哪里。我们不知道战争会发生什么。你的位置是什么？
And I remember very distinctly, I said, No, I absolutely am committed. I think this position is more important now than maybe ever, and so keep going. And I also said we need to stay and then go back, and that’s what we did.
我非常清楚地记得，我说，不，我绝对承诺。我认为这个立场现在比以往任何时候都重要，因此继续前进。我还说我们需要留下然后回去，这就是我们所做的。
Frum: Yeah, I want to protect us both against the temptation that a lot of Americans have to think that the war started in February of 2022.
弗鲁姆：是的，我想保护我们俩免受许多美国人认为战争始于2022年2月的诱惑。
Brink: Yes.
布林克：是的。
Frum: In fact, it started in 2014. But for a long time, the fighting was localized to certain border regions between Russia—the Ukrainian territory but near Russia. In February of ’22, we had an escalation of the war where the capital itself became under siege.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：实际上，它始于2014年。但是很长一段时间以来，战斗一直定位在俄罗斯之间的某些边境地区 - 乌克兰领土，但在俄罗斯附近。22年2月，我们对首都本身受到围困的战争升级。
So when did you arrive in Kyiv?
那么您什么时候到达基辅？
Brink: I arrived in Kyiv at the end of May—May 29, 2022—and I came in by land. At that time, we were driving, and I came in; I had a chargé [d’affaires] that I was replacing. We hadn’t had a confirmed ambassador in Ukraine for over three years. And I remember that very distinctly because it was me and nine other diplomats.
布林克：我于5月底（2022年5月29日）到达基辅，然后我进来了。那时，我们在开车，我进来了。我有一个我正在替换的Chargé[D'Affaire]。我们在乌克兰没有确认的大使三年多。我记得这很明显，因为那是我和其他九位外交官。
That’s who returned back to help reestablish and reopen the embassy. And when I got there—of course, embassies, when they close, they’re taken down in a way to protect our national security. So areas that are sensitive or things that are sensitive are removed or destroyed. And so when we got to the embassy, we literally had nothing that you could plug into the wall.
那是谁回来帮助重新建立大使馆并重新开放大使馆。当我到达那里时 - 当然是使馆，当他们关闭时，他们会以一种保护我们的国家安全的方式被击倒。因此，敏感的区域或敏感的事物被去除或破坏。因此，当我们到达大使馆时，我们实际上什么都没有插入墙壁。
So if you think about What do you need when you’re working? well, you need your computer, and you need your various things that help you do your job, and because of a closure, that did not exist. So this was the unexpected, I’d say, challenge that we had in the first few days and weeks. Because not only were we coming back into a war zone, not only did we not at the time have any air defense (because it was the early part of the war, it was very uncertain)—we also didn’t have a functioning, operating embassy. And that, I have to say, was a huge and heavy lift because usually when you reopen an embassy, you reopen it in conditions of peace, not in conditions of war. But here we were, trying to do that in conditions of war.
因此，如果您考虑工作时需要什么？好吧，您需要计算机，并且需要各种帮助您完成工作的事情，并且由于关闭而不存在。我想说的是，这是我们最初几天和几周所面临的挑战。因为我们不仅回到了战区，所以当时我们还没有任何防空（因为这是战争的早期，这是非常不确定的） - 我们也没有运作，经营的使馆。我不得不说，这是一个巨大而沉重的举重，因为通常在重新开设使馆时，您会在和平条件而不是在战争条件下重新开放。但是在这里，我们试图在战争条件下这样做。
Frum: Where did you sleep and eat?
弗鲁姆：你在哪里睡觉和吃饭？
Brink: So in the first three months, I slept in the embassy. So I actually was given a room in the Marine house. So we didn’t have Marines at that time. Marines usually protect embassies overseas. Me—and it’s a small seven, six or seven rooms—and so I had a room just like everybody else’s room in the Marine house, whatever Marines live in. I think it’s now called, like, the “ambassador’s room.”
布林克：所以在头三个月里，我睡在大使馆。因此，实际上我在海洋之家给了我一个房间。所以当时我们没有海军陆战队。海军陆战队通常保护大使馆在海外。我 - 这是一个很小的七个，六个或七个房间 - 所以我有一个房间，就像海军陆战队中其他所有人的房间一样，无论海军陆战队的生活如何。我认为现在被称为“大使的房间”。
And I slept and ate at the embassy. We have a small cafeteria, and I ate there. And, in fact, I didn’t want to leave, because after three months, we moved to another location—because we were getting bigger as I pushed very hard to bring more people back. And I didn’t want to move, because literally from the time I opened my eyes in the morning until the time I closed them, I was working.
我睡在大使馆。我们有一个小自助餐厅，我在那里吃了。而且，实际上，我不想离开，因为三个月后，我们搬到了另一个位置 - 因为我们很难将更多的人带回来时越来越大。而且我不想搬家，因为从我早上睁开眼睛到关闭它们的那一刻起，我一直在工作。
And I didn’t want to take the time that I needed to do any kind of commuting back and forth to the embassy. And so I think I was the last one to leave the embassy, purely because of that—not because I didn’t want to go and normalize, but because I worried it would, like, take precious seconds and minutes off of what we needed to do the job.
而且我不想花时间来回大使馆上下班。因此，我认为我是最后一个离开大使馆的人，这纯粹是因为这是因为我不想去和正常化，但是因为我担心这会比我们需要做这项工作所需的珍贵的几分钟和几分钟。
And as I told everybody, we’re working at the speed of war. But finally, I was convinced: Like, no, it’s important. It’s important that the ambassador move, as an example. And if we were going to help the Ukrainians fight this fight, we needed, also, to give people a little bit of ability to have a little downtime and perform. And that was absolutely correct, and that’s what I tried to do.
正如我告诉所有人的那样，我们正在以战争速度工作。但是最后，我被说服了：就像，不，这很重要。举例来说，重要的是要搬家。而且，如果我们要帮助乌克兰人打这场战斗，我们还需要使人们有一点停机时间和表演的能力。那是绝对正确的，这就是我试图做的。
Your first question about Why did I do this job? It’s because I believe this was the most important, or at least one of the most important diplomatic jobs on the planet for the United States. And as I think that we, as the United States, should lead and lead with our values and our interests, I was so honored to be asked to do this job.
您关于为什么要这份工作的第一个问题？这是因为我相信这是美国地球上最重要的，或者至少是最重要的外交工作之一。正如我认为，作为美国，我们应该以我们的价值观和利益领导和领导，我很荣幸能被要求做这项工作。
It was like an honor of a lifetime—really, sincerely an honor of a lifetime to do it, even though it was so challenging and hard every single minute of every single day.
这就像一生的荣誉 - 真诚的，真诚的荣誉，尽管每天都有如此挑战和艰难。
Frum: Did the embassy ever come under fire, intentional or purportedly accidental?
弗鲁姆：大使馆是否曾经遭到抨击，故意或据称是偶然的？
Brink: I mean, here’s the challenge we faced: In the first year that we were there—this is prior to receiving any Patriot systems or other types of advanced American air-defense systems—there literally was not air defense. And so for the first year-plus, I think, that I was there, we were—everyone in the country was, but we were, as the American representation—in a situation where we didn’t have the ability to protect people.
布林克：我的意思是，这是我们面临的挑战：在我们在那里的第一年，这是在收到任何爱国者系统或其他类型的美国先进的防空系统之前，实际上不是防空。因此，在第一年之后，我认为我在那里，我们在该国的每个人都是，但是作为美国的代表，我们在这种情况下我们没有能力保护人们的能力。
So when the air alerts went off, we had to make sure that we had everybody in a place that was the most safe possible, and that was underground. So many times we had situations where missiles—or at that time in the first year, it was missiles mostly—missiles would hit really close to wherever we were, and we had shrapnel hit a building, for example, that we were in.
因此，当空气警报响起时，我们必须确保我们将每个人都放在一个最安全的地方，而这是地下的。很多时候，我们有这样的情况，或者在第一年，当时是导弹，大部分是导弹 - 失误将在我们身边的任何地方都真正碰到，例如，我们在建筑物中碰到了一座建筑物。
I went, actually, with the USAID administrator—this was a bit later, actually, in the war, but—to Odessa. We had a meeting in a building one day, and then it was attacked and bombed the next day and destroyed. And then that was 12 hours or less later. And then, of course, I eventually was able to move into my residence, and we found some shrapnel missile fragments in the yard of the residence. And yeah, so the missiles and then the drones come down everywhere. And then, of course, when air defense is going up to counter that, there’s a lot of activity. It’s very dynamic in the air, and you gotta be somewhere where you can be protected.
实际上，我和美国国际开发署（USAID）管理员一起去了 - 实际上，这是在战争中，但是 - 敖德萨（Odessa）。有一天，我们在一栋建筑物中开会，然后第二天遭到袭击并炸毁并被摧毁。然后是12小时或更短时间。然后，当然，我最终能够搬进我的住所，我们在住所院子里发现了一些弹片导弹碎片。是的，所以导弹，然后无人机到处落下。然后，当然，当防防防空对抗时，会有很多活动。它在空中非常有活力，您必须在可以受到保护的地方。
Frum: And things fall back to earth. Friendly fire also falls back to Earth.
弗鲁姆：事情落回地球。友好的大火也落回地球。
Brink: Eventually everything falls back to earth. Yeah, gravity works.
边缘：最终一切都落回地球。是的，重力有效。
Frum: So you mentioned going to Odessa. Now, I think most people watching this will be aware that Ukraine is a large country. They may not understand how large it is in terms of hours and that there is no air travel. Anytime you went anywhere, you had to go by land, and with all the risks.
弗鲁姆：所以你提到要去敖德萨。现在，我认为大多数观看此事的人都会意识到乌克兰是一个大国。他们可能不了解它的数小时有多大，并且没有航空旅行。每当您去任何地方时，您都必须沿着土地和所有风险。
So tell: How did you move about the country, and what kind of protection did you have as you did?
因此，请说：您是如何在这个国家转移的，您像您一样拥有什么样的保护？
Brink: Well, of course, going in and out of the country—and I did travel in and out of the country a lot to go back to Washington to make the case on the hill or with the administration—to do everything I could to get around the country,
边缘：当然，当然，进出该国 - 我确实经常进出该国旅行，回到华盛顿，在山上或政府与政府一起案件 -
I was the biggest proponent to push for ability and permission, because some of this was controlled initially by Washington, to move around the country so that we could do really important jobs to implement the president’s policy and the administration’s policy. That includes outreach to people, including people that are suffering from the war, but to also oversee and check on weapons and other assistance that we are giving to Ukraine. And third, to provide advice and support in various ways that we do diplomatically or militarily. So we did all of that—most of that—by train, and the reason was it was the most efficient. The Ukrainian train system is amazing.
我是推动能力和许可的最大支持者，因为其中一些是华盛顿最初控制的，以便在全国各地搬迁，以便我们可以从事非常重要的工作来执行总统的政策和政府的政策。这包括向人们的宣传，包括遭受战争的人，还可以监督和检查我们向乌克兰提供的武器和其他帮助。第三，以各种方式提供我们在外交或军事上进行的建议和支持。因此，我们通过火车做了所有这一切，其中最多的是最有效的原因。乌克兰火车系统很棒。
I think they’ve kept their trains on time throughout the war; the trains were used to evacuate people at the beginning of the war. They’re used to transport people. Now they’re used to transport many different things, probably. I wouldn’t want to go into detail, but they’re a very effective part of the war effort.
我认为他们在整个战争期间一直按时保持火车。在战争开始时，火车被用来撤离人。他们习惯于运输人。现在，它们可能被用来运输许多不同的东西。我不想详细介绍，但它们是战争努力的非常有效的一部分。
And so I relied on that same thing on the Odessa trip we had, maybe, early on. I think this was in July. Again, this is a very early part of the war, so it was quite—you know, these early moments are really critical to kind of what we do. And I’m a big believer in using American power wisely and using it to shape the environment and shape events and that diplomats are not people who sit back and watch what’s going on, but actually shape toward a goal that matches our interests and our values.
因此，我也许很早就依靠同样的事情。我认为这是在七月。再说一次，这是战争的早期部分，因此，这是非常重要的 - 您知道，这些早期的时刻对于我们的工作确实至关重要。而且我坚信明智地利用美国权力，并利用它来塑造环境和塑造事件，而外交官不是坐下来观察发生的事情的人，而是朝着与我们的利益和价值观相匹配的目标塑造。
So in July, we were trying hard to help get—or keep the economy alive, because Ukraine’s economy is really dependent on exports. And the world is also dependent on grain to feed people, especially in food-scarce countries.
因此，在七月，我们正在努力帮助获得或保持经济的生命，因为乌克兰的经济确实取决于出口。世界也取决于谷物来养活人们，尤其是在粮食国家。
And so Ukrainian grain, we were trying to figure out ways to help get it out. And one of them was through the Black Sea ports. But they had been shut down, effectively, by Russian attacks. And so I worked with the Ukrainians and the UN and the G7 partners, and we came up with an idea to go to Odessa and have a G7—that’s the Group of 7; that’s the main group that supports Ukraine diplomatically—have a G7 meeting down in Odessa to get this Black Sea Grain Initiative going. It was an agreement that would be with the UN and Russia, so I traveled down there. But it was a very hard decision to make.
因此，乌克兰谷物，我们试图找出方法来帮助它。其中一个是通过黑海港口。但是俄罗斯的袭击有效地关闭了它们。因此，我与乌克兰人，联合国和G7合作伙伴合作，我们想出了一个去敖德萨并拥有G7的想法，这是7人；这是在外交上支持乌克兰的主要群体 - 在敖德萨举行的G7会议以使这一黑谷物倡议继续前进。这是与联合国和俄罗斯达成的协议，所以我去了那里。但这是一个非常艰难的决定。
But we were on our way down, and the train stopped in the middle of the night.
但是我们在下路，火车在半夜停了下来。
And I probably had a group of—I don’t know how many—maybe 20 people, including the security people who were traveling with me. And the train stopped, and I could hear my security guy get a call in the next train cabin. I hear him just say, Yes, yes. He comes back to me, and he says, There’s a missile directed. It’s going to land somewhere near us, somewhere nearby.
而且我可能有一群 - 我不知道有多少人，包括20个人，包括与我一起旅行的安全人员。火车停了下来，我听到我的安全人员在下一个火车舱中接到电话。我听到他只是说，是的，是的。他回到我身边，他说，有一枚导弹。它将降落在我们附近的某个地方的某个地方。
And we’re stopped. And I thought, Okay. And at that point, I hoped and I prayed that my team would be okay, and that that decision had been the right one. And then we waited, and that’s all you can do is wait. Fifteen minutes, 20 minutes went by, and the train started again. And then we went down.
我们被停止了。我想，好吧。那时，我希望和我祈祷我的团队会没事，而那个决定是正确的。然后我们等待，这就是您所能做的就是等待。十五分钟，20分钟过去了，火车再次开始。然后我们倒下了。
Frum: Let me ask you about your assessment of the war, as it stands today. We’re speaking in the middle of June. At the beginning of June, Ukraine scored one of its most remarkable successes in this war, disabling some number of Russian strategic bombers. I don’t know the exact count. You probably do.
弗鲁姆：让我问您有关战争的评估，今天就对战争进行评估。我们在6月中旬讲话。在6月初，乌克兰在这场战争中取得了最大的成功之一，破坏了一些俄罗斯战略轰炸机。我不知道确切的计数。你可能会这样做。
It’s maybe as high as 40. But it’s a big war with many factors. Life for the people of Ukraine—the 40 million people who remain in the country—is very difficult. They’re trying to operate schools and old-age pensions and hospitals. Give us a sense of both the military and the economic state as of mid-June 2025.
它可能高达40个。但是，这是一场大战。乌克兰人民的生活 - 留在该国的4000万人非常困难。他们正在尝试运营学校，老年养老金和医院。从2025年6月中旬开始，让我们了解军事和经济状态。
Brink: Well, I mean, I think one thing’s very clear, is that Putin has figured out that he can show—or pretend, I would say—that he’s ready to negotiate while he continues to fight on the ground and to try to gain more territory and change facts and conditions on the ground. I think that’s a mistake for us to allow that.
布林克：好吧，我的意思是，我认为一件事很清楚，普京已经弄清楚他可以表明（或假装，我会说），他准备在他继续在地面上战斗，并试图获得更多领土并改变地面上的事实和条件时进行谈判。我认为这对我们来说是一个错误。
I think the situation for the Ukrainians is: The Ukrainians continue to fight. And I think they will continue to fight until they can’t in any way, shape, or form. And so I think that in this situation, we face an ongoing, continuing war, and one that risks a greater war by not putting more force and pressure on Putin to come to the table. The Ukrainians did have a very, I’d say, successful attack on Russian military assets last weekend. And I think that that was something that they had—I was not aware of this plan—but that is something they had, I heard, in the planning for a long time.
我认为乌克兰人的情况是：乌克兰人继续战斗。而且我认为他们将继续战斗，直到他们无法以任何方式，形状或形式为止。因此，我认为在这种情况下，我们面临着一场持续的，持续的战争，并通过不给普京施加更大的武力和压力而冒着更大的战争。我想，乌克兰人确实在上周末对俄罗斯军事资产进行了成功的攻击。我认为那是他们所拥有的 - 我不知道这个计划 - 但我在计划中听说这是很长时间的。
But I just want everyone to remember that this is in defense [that] the Ukrainians hit military assets. The Russians also, in the last week or so, have launched hundreds of drones and missiles across the country of Ukraine that have killed many civilians, including children. And this is happening and has been happening throughout the war.
但是我只想让每个人都记得这是乌克兰人击中军事资产的辩护。在过去的一周左右的时间里，俄罗斯人也在乌克兰在乌克兰发射了数百枚无人机和导弹，这些无人机和导弹杀死了包括儿童在内的许多平民。这正在发生，并且在整个战争中一直在发生。
Frum: As I listen to you speak, I hope this comes out the right way, because I don’t mean this in any way a disrespectful or querulous point. But I notice you’re arguing with a lot of things that you would think no rational person would propose in the first place.
弗鲁姆：当我听你说话时，我希望这是正确的方式，因为我的意思不是任何一种不尊重或怪异的观点。但是我注意到您在争论很多事情，您认为首先没有理性的人会提出建议。
You’re arguing that Russia is the aggressor, not Ukraine. You are arguing that the defense of this embattled, invaded democracy is something that Americans should care about. You sound a little bit like someone who’s been on the receiving end of arguments with the most anti-democratic, anti-social, anti-American people you can possibly imagine over the past number of months. And that is the judo pose in which you are ready to spring into action.
您认为俄罗斯是侵略者，而不是乌克兰。您认为，美国人应该关心这种陷入困境，入侵的民主的辩护。您听起来有点像一个在过去几个月中可以想象的最反民主，反社会，反美国人的人的争论端。这就是您准备采取行动的柔道姿势。
Am I hearing the reverberation of six months of discussions against people who would say things like, Well, maybe Ukraine’s at fault. Maybe this isn’t important?
我听说六个月的讨论与那些会说乌克兰有过错的人进行讨论。也许这并不重要？
Brink: Well, I mean, of course, you’ve heard what the administration and what the president’s position has been, you know, to be some kind of independent—or, yeah, like, independent mediator.
布林克：嗯，我的意思是，当然，您已经听到了政府的职能以及总统的职位是什么，您知道是某种独立的（或者，是的，就像独立的调解人）。
I strongly disagree that that is a position that is good for U.S. interest. In the small sense, and this is really important for Ukraine, it’s really vital that we don’t allow Putin as an aggressor to just change borders by force, because this sets a terrible precedent here. It sets a terrible precedent in other places around the world.
我强烈不同意这是对美国利益有益的立场。从小小的角度来看，这对于乌克兰来说确实很重要，至关重要的是，我们不允许普京作为侵略者只能通过武力改变边界，因为这在这里树立了可怕的先例。它在世界其他地方树立了可怕的先例。
But I think what I want to say is that, more strategically, I think Putin’s goals are much bigger. I don’t think it’s just Ukraine. I think people who think that, Oh, Putin will stop at Ukraine, that’s not my experience in 28 years working in this part of the world. Putin doesn’t stop unless stopped, unless given clear positioning that we and partners will oppose a specific direction. I believe he’s going to keep going. I think it’s clear to me that he wants to reverse Ukraine’s path toward not just the EU, which is where this all started, but also to NATO, to weaken NATO, to divide Europe, and to weaken the United States.
但是我认为我想说的是，从战略上讲，我认为普京的目标要大得多。我不认为这只是乌克兰。我认为那些认为普京将在乌克兰停留的人，这不是我在世界这个地区工作的28年的经验。除非停止，否则普京不会停止，除非我们明确表示我们和合作伙伴将反对特定的方向。我相信他将继续前进。我认为对我来说很明显，他想扭转乌克兰的道路，不仅是欧盟的道路，而且这一切都是从这里开始的，而且要削弱北约，削弱北约，分裂欧洲并削弱美国。
And to me, we need a policy that is strategic in the sense of framing what our actions are to achieve the goal, which I think should be to stop Putin from being successful in this attempt.
对我来说，我们需要一项在构架我们的行动以实现目标方面具有战略意义的政策，我认为应该阻止普京在这一尝试中取得成功。
Frum: But you’ve spent a lot of time arguing things that one would’ve thought were settled, like this war is Russia’s fault, not Ukraine’s fault.
弗鲁姆：但是，您花了很多时间来争论人们认为已经解决的事情，就像这场战争是俄罗斯的错，而不是乌克兰的错。
Brink: Yes. I mean, the challenge in the current moment—well, maybe two things I would say. One, I think what’s at risk now is so much bigger than just Ukraine. I think Ukraine is—I care very deeply. I spent three years of my life in a war zone trying to protect my team but also advance our goals of keeping Ukraine free.
布林克：是的。我的意思是，当前时刻的挑战 - 好吧，也许是我要说的两件事。第一，我认为现在处于危险之中的人比乌克兰大得多。我认为乌克兰非常关心。我在战区度过了三年的生命，试图保护自己的团队，但也促进了我们保持乌克兰自由的目标。
But I think even more broadly than that, what’s at risk is the peace and prosperity that we have enjoyed for 80 years since World War II—because we have relied on some fundamental principles, including, especially: We, the United States, support democracy and freedom at home and abroad. We, the United States, believe that it’s important to work with our friends and allies. We, the United States, think that we need to stop aggressors from achieving their goals and compete with China.
但是我认为，比这更广泛地说，有风险的是自第二次世界大战以来我们享有80年的和平与繁荣，因为我们一直依靠一些基本原则，包括：我们，美国，美国，支持国内外的民主和自由。我们，美国认为与我们的朋友和盟友一起工作很重要。我们，美国认为我们需要阻止侵略者实现目标并与中国竞争。
I think people don’t maybe think about it in this sense, but I think about how undermining some of these principles is risky. It’s risky for us. It’s risky for our children and future generations because we’re taking away some of the foundation of what has built our own prosperity, what has built our own success as a nation.
我认为人们可能不会从这个意义上考虑这一点，但是我想到破坏其中一些原则是有风险的。这对我们来说是冒险的。这对我们的孩子和子孙后代都是有风险的，因为我们正在剥夺建立自己的繁荣的基础，这是建立自己作为一个国家成功的原因。
Frum: I suppose where I’m going with this is: Every major conflict, there are many, many choices. They’re all very difficult. If the questions weren’t difficult, they wouldn’t be at your level in the first place. And the way we think the United States government operates is: people of good faith and unquestioned patriotism and commitment to shared values, dealing with hard issues of what’s the right way to go, dealing with un terrible uncertainty and lack of information and trying to come to some kind of balance.
弗鲁姆：我想我要去的地方是：每一次重大冲突，都有很多选择。他们都很困难。如果这些问题并不困难，那么它们首先就不会达到您的水平。我们认为美国政府运作的方式是：真诚和毫无疑问的爱国主义和对共同价值观的承诺，处理正确的方法，处理不可怕的不确定性和缺乏信息并试图达到某种平衡的困难问题。
And certainly, in the first years you were in Ukraine, there were many of those discussions, and my opinion: And a lot of them went the wrong way. The United States was late to give Ukraine the things it needed and the chance to score more-decisive gains in the summer of 2023.
当然，在您在乌克兰的最初几年中，有很多讨论，我的看法是：其中许多人走错了方向。美国迟到了，为乌克兰提供所需的东西，并有机会在2023年夏天获得更具决定性的收益。
Maybe it wasn’t ever there, but if it was there, it wasn’t seized. But as I listen to you, I hear the reverberations of something that sounds like some kind of cheesy, paranoid Cold War novel—where back home, in Washington, there are important voices that aren’t people of good faith, aren’t imbued with shared patriotic values, don’t stand up for democracy and actually want to see our friends lose, not our friends win.
也许永远不会在那里，但是如果它在那里，那就没有被抓住。但是，当我听你的话时，我听到听起来像某种俗气，偏执的冷战小说的回响 - 回到家中，在华盛顿，有一些重要的声音不是真诚的人，并没有充满共同的爱国价值观，不要为民主站起来，而不是为民主站起来，实际上想看到我们的朋友失去，而不是我们的朋友获胜。
Brink: Well, I think the challenge we have now with—well, what happened with me is pretty simple, is that for 28 years, I felt very strongly that I could and I was able to offer my opinion and my advice about what’s the best course for foreign policy. In our business, you sometimes prevail in that effort, and sometimes you don’t. And sometimes because I did it for so long and worked in an area that was in a similar area, I had the ability to come back to issues sometimes and then prevail in a different administration.
布林克：好吧，我认为我们现在面临的挑战 - 好吧，我所发生的事情非常简单，是28年来，我非常强烈地感到自己能做到，而且我能够就外交政策最好的课程发表意见和建议。在我们的业务中，您有时会占上风，有时您没有。有时，因为我做了很长时间，并且在一个类似地区的领域工作，所以我有时能够回到问题，然后在其他政府中占上风。
For example, when I worked before in Washington, I was part of the group that helped to give Ukraine—or make a recommendation that the then-President Trump, in the first administration, gave weapons to Ukraine, defensive weapons. Those weapons helped to save Kyiv. But now, coming back in the second administration, here’s what happened. Every day I woke up, and I was told I might be fired, so I should be careful what I say and what I do. That’s fine in terms of: We all serve at the pleasure of the president. That’s the way the system works for ambassadors.
例如，当我之前在华盛顿工作时，我是帮助乌克兰提供的团体的一员，或者建议当时的总统特朗普在第一个政府中为乌克兰提供了武器。这些武器有助于拯救基辅。但是现在，回到第二届政府，这就是发生的事情。每天我醒来，有人告诉我可能会被解雇，所以我应该小心自己说什么和做什么。这很好：我们所有人都以总统的欢迎。这就是系统为大使的工作方式。
But what has happened under an administration with President Trump with such dramatic changes, for example, destroying and changing institutions, like USAID or Department of Education or other institutions, is that what happens with the bureaucracy is: The bureaucracy becomes not a strong advocate of whatever is the recommended approach. What we do as career people is that we make recommendations and then ultimately, of course, it’s the leadership—it’s the elected leadership and the president—who decides.
但是，在特朗普总统的政府下发生了如此巨大的变化，例如，官僚机构发生的事情是：官僚机构发生的事情是：官僚机构并不是推荐方法的强有力的倡导者。作为职业人士，我们做的是我们提出建议，然后最终，当然是领导层（当选的领导和总统）决定了。
In my experience in this Trump administration, there was no space to make recommendations if they conflicted with whatever was the, I think, perceived view of the president. That’s highly problematic. I can tell you many times during the Biden administration, I am sure I annoyed or aggravated people because I was so persistent, but I felt it was my duty and my job in my views, and I never—of course, I would implement, once a decision was made, whatever was required or decided—but I never felt that I was at risk of being fired or that I would, by annoying people, was going to be problematic for me personally.
根据我在特朗普政府的经验，如果我认为总统认为的任何观点与任何事物相抵触，就没有任何空间来提出建议。这是非常有问题的。在拜登管理期间，我可以告诉你很多次，我敢肯定，我很生气或加剧人们，因为我是如此持久，但是我觉得这是我的职责和我的工作，我从来没有这样做，当然，一旦我做出决定，无论是什么，我都不会被解雇或烦恼的人，因为我从来没有烦恼过，因为我从来没有烦恼过，我会因为我的烦恼而感到烦恼。
And I believe sincerely that—even though, again, I’m sure in many times, I thought we should be doing something else; you don’t get to win every argument—but what you need is a structured policy approach so that you can make the case, and so you can come to a decision, and so you can know the facts.
我真诚地相信，即使，我敢肯定，我敢肯定，我认为我们应该做其他事情。您不会赢得每个论点，但是您需要的是结构化的政策方法，以便您可以做出案例，因此您可以做出决定，因此您可以知道事实。
I need that as ambassador. The president needs that as president, and that’s what doesn’t exist. Moreover, this fear makes people not want to give their opinion, and so in that period, I said my view was that this is the most important diplomatic job on the planet. I’ve gotta do it in a way where I’m not fearful. I have to do it in the best way that I can. And then when I couldn’t, that’s why I left.
我需要作为大使。总统需要作为总统，这就是不存在的。此外，这种恐惧使人们不想发表意见，因此在那个时期，我说这是地球上最重要的外交工作。我必须以一种我不惧怕的方式来做到这一点。我必须尽力而为。然后，当我做不到的时候，这就是为什么我离开的原因。
Frum: Can I press you to be more specific? Who had the job of advising you that you might be fired?
弗鲁姆：我可以按你更具体吗？谁有建议您可能被解雇的工作？
Brink: Well, I would say this is more the career folks that are literally, I think, pulling their punches and scared.
布林克：好吧，我想这更多的是我认为，从字面上看，他们挥拳并害怕。
Frum: To whom do you report as ambassador to Ukraine? I mean, ultimately, the secretary of state, but who’s your immediate report? To whom do you address your cables when you send them home?
弗鲁姆：您向谁报告乌克兰大使？我的意思是，最终是国务卿，但是谁是您的直接报告？当您将电缆寄回家时，您会向谁讲话？
Brink: Well, you report to the secretary of state, and you report to your chain of command, which goes through the secretary of state and then to the White House. But your day-to-day interactions are, in many cases, with career officials who are in very senior positions in the department.
布林克：好吧，您向国务卿报告，然后向您的指挥连锁店报告，该指挥官通过国务卿，然后是白宫。但是，在许多情况下，您的日常互动是与职业官员在该部门处于高级职位的职业官员。
Frum: Undersecretaries and so on. And so is that the person who would say, You might be fired if you say this thing in your cable?
Frum：秘密等。那是那个会说的人，如果您在电缆中说这件事，您可能会被解雇吗？
Brink: Oh, it was many people. It was people in Washington. It was people on my team. It was many people.
布林克：哦，有很多人。是华盛顿的人。是我团队中的人。是很多人。
Frum: Did you talk to—I mean, Secretary Rubio, who was once a friend of Ukraine, once an advocate of traditional American leadership, and who seems to be making his own calculations, did he ever communicate to you, You’re going too far. You’re in danger?
弗鲁姆：你是在谈论吗？我的意思是，鲁比奥秘书鲁比奥曾经是乌克兰的朋友，曾经是美国传统领导人的拥护者，而且似乎正在自己进行计算，他是否曾经与您交流，您走得太远了。你有危险吗？
Brink: No, he did not.
布林克：不，他没有。
Frum: Wasn’t that his job?
弗鲁姆：那不是他的工作吗？
Brink: Well, I don’t know if that was true or not. I think a lot of it, I mean, I heard and respected. I always want to hear divergent views. And I heard that, but it didn’t change what I did. I still believed that I had to do it a certain way. And I want to hear when people think—I need my advisers or I need people in Washington to give me a steer on which way to go. And I want to keep—as a person of the career service, you can’t step out and have your own policy. You have to keep within the policy lines.
布林克：好吧，我不知道那是真的。我认为很多，我的意思是，我听到和尊重。我总是想听听分歧的观点。我听到了，但这并没有改变我的所作所为。我仍然相信我必须以某种方式这样做。我想听听人们何时思考 - 我需要我的顾问，或者我需要在华盛顿的人们为我带来哪种方法。我想保留 - 作为职业服务的人，您无法走出去并拥有自己的政策。您必须遵守政策行。
But at the same time, it was very hard to have a policy that had been very clear about who’s to blame—who’s responsible, what’s happening on the ground that children are being killed, that people are losing their lives and their homes, and this is happening today, right now—and not be able to speak about that publicly. But it was my job to continue to try.
但是与此同时，很难制定一项非常清楚的政策，因为谁负责，谁是负责人，是因为孩子们被杀害，人们正在失去生命和房屋，而这今天正在发生，现在正在发生，并且无法公开谈论这一问题。但这是我继续尝试的工作。
So that didn’t deter me from trying to do the job, but it made it—it really underscores to me what worries me. Because having institutions that are strong, they need to execute policy as decided by the president. But you need institutions that can offer advice and guidance so that the president can make the best decision. And that is a structure that exists and has existed in every administration. And some are not so great and some are better, but there’s always been the structure.
因此，这并没有阻止我尝试完成这项工作，但这确实如此，这确实强调了我的担心。因为拥有强大的机构，他们需要执行总统决定的政策。但是您需要可以提供建议和指导的机构，以便总统可以做出最佳决定。这是每个政府中存在并存在的结构。有些不是很好，有些更好，但是总是有结构。
Frum: That’s assuming that the president wants to make decisions in the best interest of the country, meaning this country. Sometimes you may have a president who wants to make the decisions in the best interest of some other country, and then you have a real problem.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：那是假设总统想为该国的最大利益做出决定，这意味着这个国家。有时，您可能有一位总统想根据其他国家的最大利益做出决定，然后您有一个真正的问题。
But let me ask you: If there were someone in your shoes but one stage, one train car, back in her career and was considering the next step on the train car, how would you advise that person one train car back to think about service to this president and this administration? You’re a person of normal American patriotism. You’re being invited to do something for this administration. We’ve seen how it has sucked the soul out of some of the people who had those, like the secretary of state, once a normal American. How would you advise them to think about whether it’s wise or not to serve, or whether they should wait for another moment?
但是，让我问你：如果您的鞋子中有一个阶段，一辆火车，回到她的职业生涯中，并且正在考虑火车车上的下一步，您将如何建议一辆火车的人回来考虑为这位总统和这个政府服务的服务？您是美国正常爱国主义的人。您被邀请为本届政府做些事情。我们已经看到了它是如何从曾经是正常美国人的国务卿（例如国务卿）等一些人中吸引着灵魂的。您将如何建议他们考虑是否明智地服务，或者他们是否应该再等一下？
Brink: Well, what I’ve always told people, now and before—because I’ve had to mentor and lead a lot of younger officers, and I’ve had myself fantastic mentors and leaders above me who have really shaped me and helped me—is that our job is to give the best advice and to fight very hard to relay that advice in the best way possible to our elected leadership as career people, and that if, at the end of the day, you feel you can’t execute the policy that has been decided, you have some options.
布林克：好吧，我一直以前和以前一直告诉别人 - 因为我不得不指导和领导很多年轻的军官，而且我让我自己上面确实塑造了我并帮助我，我们的工作就是我们的工作是要提供最好的建议，并能够尽最大努力地将我们的建议与我们当选的职业人士，如果您能否取决于您的某些政策，那么您已经在某些情况下取得了决定。
The first option is: There’s lots of places in the world that you can serve, and you can go, probably, find someplace or something that aligns with your own values. You can do that. Second option: You can go into our training cadre, which is really important to train the diplomats of the future. And I think and hope those diplomats will be very active, because I think this is very important. We are the frontline of freedom, as diplomats, in the area of Europe in which I worked.
第一个选择是：您可以服务世界上很多地方，您可以找到与自己的价值观相符的地方或某些东西。你可以做到。第二种选择：您可以进入我们的培训干部，这对于培训未来的外交官非常重要。我认为并希望这些外交官会非常活跃，因为我认为这很重要。在我工作的欧洲地区，我们是自由的前线。
And then the third is you can decide that your conscience doesn’t allow you to execute, and you can resign. And I always said it’s important to work and do everything possible to serve our country and do the best that you can. But if you come to that point, you have to make that decision. And I believed, and I’ve always said, you should work as if it’s your last day in government and think about everything you do, especially in places that are such high stakes as Ukraine, as if you’re not going to have a job tomorrow.
然后，第三个是您可以决定您的良心不允许您执行，并且您可以辞职。我总是说，工作并尽一切可能为我们的国家服务并尽力而为很重要。但是，如果您到这一点，就必须做出决定。我相信，我一直说，您应该像您在政府中的最后一天一样工作，并考虑您所做的一切，尤其是在像乌克兰这样的高赌注的地方，好像明天您不会有工作。
It’s really hard to do that, but that’s my advice.
真的很难做到这一点，但这是我的建议。
Frum: Let me interrupt you there just to say: What you’re describing is a thinking process that one might have had in January of 2025, when it was uncertain what the second Trump administration would look like. In June of 2025, we know exactly what the second Trump administration is going to look like.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：让我在那里打扰您：您所描述的是一个思维过程，这是一个人可能在2025年1月所经历的，当时不确定第二届特朗普政府会是什么样。在2025年6月，我们确切地知道第二届特朗普政府将是什么样子。
So if you are someone who’s offered to be ambassador to one of the countries that Trump doesn’t like or one of the countries that Trump likes a lot, you know what it’s going to be. You don’t have to do that three-part assessment you just described. You know the answer already. So knowing the answer of what this administration is like, how do you advise then? Because obviously, the business of government has to be carried on. If someone is offered a job as ambassador to Ukraine, how should they think about that?
因此，如果您是一个提议担任特朗普不喜欢的国家之一或特朗普非常喜欢的国家之一的人，那么您就会知道这将是什么。您不必进行刚才描述的三部分评估。你已经知道答案了。因此，知道这个政府的答案，您如何建议？因为显然，必须从事政府业务。如果有人为乌克兰的大使提供工作，他们应该如何看待？
Brink: I think that has to be an individual decision. I think being ambassador is one thing. You’re the public face of the policy, and so you really have to make that decision individually. I think for the staff and the younger officers, it’s extraordinarily important that we have this career service, and it’s extraordinarily important that they serve and provide the knowledge and recommendations and active diplomacy that makes us like the tip of the spear of our government overseas. So I just think that has to be a decision of individuals, and they have to make it with their own conscience.
布林克：我认为这必须是个人决定。我认为当大使是一回事。您是该政策的公众面貌，因此您确实必须单独做出该决定。我认为，对于员工和年轻官员来说，我们拥有这项职业服务非常重要，而且非常重要的是，他们为他们服务并提供知识，建议和积极的外交，这使我们像我们在海外政府的矛头一样。因此，我只是认为这必须是个人的决定，他们必须以自己的良心做到这一点。
Frum: Well, let me ask you this way: When and if President Trump appoints new people to run Ukraine policy, he’s got a special representative who’s in charge of negotiating, who seems very in thrall to the Russian point of view, whose son is operating a crypto business that is getting money from God knows who and God knows where. How do we as citizens evaluate the people who are making these policies supposedly in the interest, in name of the United States?
弗鲁姆：好吧，让我以这种方式问你：特朗普总统何时以及是否任命新人来执行乌克兰政策，他有一位负责谈判的特别代表，他们似乎非常敬畏俄罗斯的观点，他们的儿子正在经营一个加密货币业务，他从上帝那里得到钱，上帝知道谁和上帝知道谁。作为公民，我们如何以美国的名义评估制定这些政策的人们？
Brink: I think it’s a mistake not to rely on people with expertise in the area. I think it’s a big mistake, especially in Russia. Putin has a larger strategic plan, which is very dangerous to the United States, and we ignore that plan at our peril.
布林克：我认为不依靠该地区专业知识的人是一个错误。我认为这是一个大错误，尤其是在俄罗斯。普京有一个更大的战略计划，这对美国非常危险，我们忽略了我们的危险计划。
And although he operates tactically, so he can be defeated. But I think it requires a very thoughtful, strategic, coordinated approach, and that’s something that in the second Trump administration, my challenge had been getting advice to the right person, because there are a number of different people who are working on Ukraine and on Russia policy. And in that bifurcated way, it was very difficult to get advice.
尽管他在战术上运作，因此可以被击败。但是我认为这需要一种非常周到，战略性的，协调的方法，这就是在第二届特朗普政府中，我的挑战一直是向合适的人提供建议，因为有许多不同的人正在从事乌克兰和俄罗斯的政策。以这种分叉的方式，很难获得建议。
And when I asked, How I best relay advice and information? I was told I had to go to a multiple number of people across our government in order to affect the policy because there wasn’t, as I said, a policy process, a decision-making process. And my problem was: I was in a war zone.
当我询问时，如何最好地中继建议和信息？有人告诉我，我必须去政府多数人来影响政策，因为正如我所说的那样，没有政策过程，是一个决策过程。我的问题是：我在战区。
I was really busy. I did not have time to call individual people to try to make the case for a specific policy recommendation. And I think that’s something that can still be put in place. But that was and is a big part of the problem. It’s the chaos of the policy process, which: I don’t know why that’s the operating style, but it is not conducive to our ability to execute and implement a strategic foreign policy that deters Russia, sends the right signal to China, and advances American interest for Americans here at home.
我真的很忙。我没有时间打电话给个人来试图为特定的政策建议提出理由。而且我认为这仍然可以放置。但这是并且是问题的重要组成部分。这是政策过程的混乱，这是：我不知道为什么这是运营风格，但它不利于我们执行和执行阻止俄罗斯的战略外交政策的能力，向中国发出了正确的信号，并向美国对美国人的利益提高了美国的利益。
Frum: So you’re saying that it’s kind of a secret hierarchy, where, theoretically, the secretary of state is in charge, but, actually, the president of the Kennedy Center is a lot more important than the secretary of state to American foreign policy.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：因此，您是说这是一个秘密的等级制度，从理论上讲，国务卿负责，但实际上，肯尼迪中心的主席比美国外交政策的国务卿更重要。
And that’s not a hypothetical example. That may be a very real one.
这不是一个假设的例子。那可能是一个非常真实的。
Brink: I think the challenge I had was that I didn’t know who was—I could, of course, talk to some people within the administration who I thought genuinely understood the challenge of Ukraine and how to approach it. I did not sense that there was an ability to inform the president in a way that would help us advance our policy.
布林克：我认为我遇到的挑战是我不知道是谁 - 当然，我可以与政府内部的某些人交谈，我认为真正了解乌克兰的挑战以及如何处理。我没有感觉到有能力以帮助我们推进政策的方式通知总统。
And that’s an untenable position for an ambassador, an ambassador in a war zone, an ambassador has a thousand people to protect and make sure are safe, and that is trying to accomplish one of our top foreign-policy goals.
这对于大使，在战区的大使来说，这是一个站不住脚的立场，大使有一千人来保护和确保安全，这是试图实现我们最重要的外国政策目标之一。
Frum: Let me ask one final question: As you departed from Ukraine, when the Ukrainians in the summer of 2025 look back toward the United States, the country that gave them some if maybe not enough aid at the beginning of the war, what do they see now? And what do they think of Americans?
弗鲁姆：让我问一个最后一个问题：当您离开乌克兰时，当2025年夏天的乌克兰人回头回到美国时，这个国家在战争开始时也可能没有足够的帮助，现在他们看到了什么？他们如何看待美国人？
Brink: Well, maybe I’ll tell you a story of my last few days, when I was in Ukraine and met with a very senior official. It was one of my last calls. Basically, he showed me what he said had been presented to the Ukrainians as a possible way forward in terms of a peace negotiation.
布林克：好吧，也许我会告诉你一个关于我过去几天的故事，当时我在乌克兰并会见了一位非常高级官员。这是我最后一个电话之一。基本上，他向我展示了他所说的话，这是在和平谈判方面可能前进的一种可能的方式。
That paper, which I won’t go into detail of, included what I would say Putin’s wish list of everything that he wants. And he looked at me and he said, You are our closest strategic partner. That’s all he said. And I had nothing I could say, because I myself, as someone who dedicated a big part of my life to supporting freedom and democracy in Ukraine and in the wider European space for the benefit of Americans, I had nothing to say either.
我不会详细介绍的那篇论文包括我要说的普京的愿望清单。他看着我，他说，您是我们最亲密的战略合作伙伴。这就是他所说的。我什么也没能说，因为我本人是一个献身于我一生中很大一部分的人，以支持乌克兰的自由和民主，以及在更广泛的欧洲空间中以使美国人受益，我也无话可说。
Frum: They feel that the United States is lost to them.
弗鲁姆：他们觉得美国迷失了。
Brink: I don’t think they understand. I don’t think I understand, or many of us who are experts and long patriots and public servants understand.
布林克：我认为他们不了解。我不认为我理解，或者我们许多人都是专家，长期的爱国者和公务员理解的。
Frum: Is it that we don’t understand, or that we do understand and our hearts can’t accept the answer?
弗鲁姆：是我们不理解的，还是我们确实理解，我们的内心无法接受答案？
Brink: I think it’s a different administration, and it’s a threat to our future, and that’s why I’ve come out. That’s why I left. That’s why I’m speaking publicly. I think it’s bad for America to be where we are. It’s not who we are. And I just—we have to be on the right side of history. There are very few pivotal moments in history. And as someone who has now done this for 28 years, I think it’s vital that we stand on the right side.
布林克：我认为这是一个不同的政府，这是对我们未来的威胁，这就是为什么我出来的原因。这就是我离开的原因。这就是为什么我公开讲话。我认为美国成为我们所在的地方是不好的。这不是我们的身份。我只是 - 我们必须站在历史的右边。历史上很少有关键时刻。作为现在已经完成了28年的人，我认为我们站在右边是至关重要的。
Frum: Ambassador Brink, thank you so much for your time today. Good luck with the book. I look forward so much to reading it as you work on it. And good luck to—I know you have some important personal decisions to make and career decisions to make about what comes next for you. And we’re all watching those with keen interest, and we all hope that your service to the United States has not ended and that the United States that you believed in has not ended either.
弗鲁姆：边缘大使，今天非常感谢您的宝贵时间。这本书祝你好运。我非常期待在您处理它时阅读它。祝您好运 - 我知道您有一些重要的个人决定可以做出职业决定，以制定下一步的事情。我们都在注视着那些浓厚的兴趣的人，我们都希望您对美国的服务没有结束，并且您相信的美国也没有结束。
Brink: I don’t think it has. I’m sure it hasn’t. Thank you. Thank you, David.
Brink: I don’t think it has.I’m sure it hasn’t.谢谢。Thank you, David.
[Music]
[音乐]
Frum: Thank you so much to Ambassador Bridget Brink for talking to me for this edition of The David Frum Show. Thanks to the editors and publishers of The Picton Gazette for their generous hospitality on this Canada Day week, when so much in Picton is closed.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：非常感谢Bridget Brink大使与我交谈此版本的David Frum Show。感谢Picton宪报的编辑和出版商在这个加拿大日周上的慷慨好客，当时Picton封闭了很多。
If you are enjoying this podcast, I hope you’ll share it with friends, especially this episode, which is so urgent about Ukraine’s survival. And I hope you’ll like and subscribe, both the video form of the podcast and any audio form that you like and prefer.
如果您喜欢这个播客，希望您能与朋友分享，尤其是这一集，这对乌克兰的生存非常紧迫。我希望您会喜欢并订阅播客的视频形式以及您喜欢和喜欢的任何音频表格。
I look forward to speaking to you next week for another episode of The David Frum Show.
我期待下周与您交谈，参加David Frum Show的另一集。
[Music]
[音乐]
Frum: This episode of The David Frum Show was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Ebeid is the executive producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）节目的这一集由纳撒尼尔·弗鲁姆（Nathaniel Frum）制作，并由安德里亚·瓦尔德斯（Andrea Valdez）编辑。它是由戴夫·格林（Dave Grein）设计的。我们的主题是安德鲁·爱德华兹（Andrew M. Edwards）。Claudine Ebeid是Atlantic Audio的执行制片人，Andrea Valdez是我们的执行编辑。
I’m David Frum. Thank you for listening.
我是大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）。谢谢你的聆听。
