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The guest on this episode of Radio Atlantic would not describe herself as “fun at parties,” but at least she knows it. “I’ve never really liked my personality,” wrote Olga Khazan in 2022, “and other people don’t like it either.” A few years ago, Khazan set out to change her personality, a task many people think is impossible. As Khazan explains, in the late 1800s, William James, who is considered the father of modern psychology, developed a theory that a person’s personality is set in plaster around age 30. James himself was depressive and neurotic, and he suffered from what he called “soul-sickness.” Thankfully, he was also incorrect. Later research showed that people can, in fact, shift even core parts of their personality, if they work at it systematically.
这本广播大西洋电台的嘉宾不会将自己描述为“在聚会上的乐趣”，但至少她知道这一点。奥尔加·卡赞（Olga Khazan）在2022年写道：“我从来没有真正喜欢过自己的个性，而且其他人也不喜欢它。”几年前，Khazan着手改变她的个性，许多人认为这是不可能的任务。正如Khazan所解释的那样，在1800年代后期，被认为是现代心理学之父的威廉·詹姆斯（William James）发展了一个理论，即一个人的个性设置在30岁左右的石膏中。詹姆斯本人沮丧和神经质，他遭受了他所谓的“灵魂善良”的困扰。值得庆幸的是，他也不正确。后来的研究表明，如果人们系统地工作，人们实际上可以改变其个性的核心部分。
After consulting with the experts on personality plasticity and then setting a deadline, Khazan put herself through an intense experiment intended to make herself more likable, to herself and others. Her evaluations were not soft and subjective but numerical; Khazan tested and scored herself on a range of key personality traits at the beginning and end of the experiment. In this episode, Khazan and I talk about two of those traits: extroversion and neuroticism. Khazan shares how for her book Me, But Better, she dragged herself to improv classes and meditation lessons, and how having a baby threw a kink in her experiment.
在与人格可塑性的专家协商后，然后设定了截止日期之后，Khazan通过了一个激烈的实验，旨在使自己更加讨人喜欢。她的评估不是柔软和主观的，而是数字的。在实验的开始和结束时，Khazan在一系列关键的人格特征上进行了测试并取得了自己的评价。在这一集中，我和Khazan谈论了其中两个特征：外向和神经质。Khazan分享了她的书《我的书》，但更好的是，她将自己拖到即兴上课和冥想课上，以及生孩子如何在实验中扭结。
The following is a transcript of the episode:
以下是该集的成绩单：
Hanna Rosin: There is one thing I really don’t like about myself. I mean, there are several, but I’m only going to tell you about this one right now. It can be the most beautiful day—like springtime, cherry blossoms every direction you look—and immediately, instinctively, my mind will scan for the one thing wrong. Like, Gross! There’s pollen all over that car.
汉娜·罗辛（Hanna Rosin）：我真的不喜欢自己的一件事。我的意思是，有几个，但是我只想告诉您这一个。这可能是最美好的一天 - 例如春天，樱花开花了您所看的每个方向 - 立即，本能地，我的思想会扫描一件错误的事情。就像，毛！那辆车上都有花粉。
I have definitely tried over the years to do this or that to counteract it, like cultivate a more positive mindset or start my day by saying three things I’m grateful for. But I think there’s just a part of me that thinks, Well, that’s just how Hanna is, like there’s some core of Hanna Rosin, whether it’s genetic or epigenetic or learned, that will always scan for the negative.
多年来，我肯定会尝试这样做或来抵消它，例如培养更积极的心态或通过说三件事，我要感谢我的三件事。但是我认为，我只有一部分人认为汉娜就是这样，就像汉娜·罗辛（Hanna Rosin）的某些核心，无论是遗传性的，表观遗传学的，还是学到的，都会始终扫描为负面的核心。
I’m Hanna Rosin. This is Radio Atlantic, and today we’re talking about personality—what it is and whether it’s something you can actually change.
我是Hanna Rosin。这是广播大西洋，今天我们在谈论个性 - 它是什么，以及您是否可以真正改变它。
Olga Khazan: So, many decades ago, William James did come up with this theory that personality is sort of set like plaster at age 30, and it never softens again after age 30.
奥尔加·哈赞（Olga Khazan）：因此，几十年前，威廉·詹姆斯（William James）确实提出了这个理论，即个性像30岁时一样设定了石膏，而且30岁以后再也不会变软。
Rosin: That’s staff writer Olga Khazan. And the William James she’s talking about is considered the father of American psychology. But his view of personality doesn’t hold up to modern scrutiny.
松果：那是员工作家奥尔加·卡赞。她谈论的威廉·詹姆斯（William James）被认为是美国心理学的父亲。但是他对个性的看法并不能受到现代审查。
Khazan: There wasn’t a whole lot of research on personality or psychology. It just wasn’t really a developed science. So when researchers started doing more modern studies about this, what they found, after following the same group of people for decades and decades, is that most people actually do change, and if they do stuff to try to change, they kind of change even faster.
Khazan：关于人格或心理学的研究没有很多。它并不是真正的发达科学。因此，当研究人员开始对此进行更多的现代研究时，他们发现的是，在跟随同一群人数十年和几十年之后，大多数人确实会发生变化，如果他们确实尝试改变，他们会更快地改变。
Rosin: Like me, Olga had things about her personality that she wished she could change. And when she learned that it’s not so set in stone, she thought she’d give it a try. She made it a monthslong project, an experiment. And she wrote about it in a new book called Me, But Better.
松果：像我一样，奥尔加对她的个性有一些事情，希望她能改变。当她得知这不是那么石头时，她认为自己会尝试一下。她将其制作了一个月的项目，一个实验。她在一本名为《我》的新书中写道，但更好。
[Music]
[音乐]
Rosin: So I love this idea. I find it very inspiring, as I’m sure a lot of people do. Why did you start it? Like, obviously, there were things about yourself that you didn’t like—which there are things about all of us that we don’t like, but what was it in your case?
松香：所以我喜欢这个主意。我觉得很多人都很鼓舞人心。你为什么启动它？显然，关于您自己的事情您不喜欢 - 我们所有人都不喜欢的事情，但是您的情况是什么？
Khazan: Yeah, so on top of not liking certain things about myself, something that I noticed is that I just wasn’t very happy, and I wasn’t enjoying my life to the extent that I thought that I could.
Khazan：是的，除了不喜欢自己的某些事情之外，我注意到的是我不是很高兴，而且我并不享受自己的生活。
So what started this was I had just a really rough day. I was in Miami in December, so definitely nothing to complain about environment-wise. I had to go get professional photos taken for our job, and I had to get a haircut before the photos were taken. And so I go; I book a hair appointment. This haircut is terrible. It’s probably one of the worst haircuts I’ve ever gotten in my life.
因此，这是我的一天艰难的一天。我在12月在迈阿密，所以肯定没有什么可以抱怨环境方面的。我必须去买工作的专业照片，并且在拍摄照片之前必须理发。所以我去；我预约头发。这个发型很糟糕。这可能是我一生中最糟糕的发型之一。
Rosin: Details. Details. Was it a bang problem?
松香：细节。细节。这是一个爆炸问题吗？
Khazan: It wasn’t a bang problem. Okay, I try to emphasize every time I get my hair cut that my hair does not take layers well. And they always do layers, despite what I explicitly said. And maybe I need to just be more straightforward about it. But anyway—so there was like a mushrooming effect because of the attempt at layers.
Khazan：这不是一个爆炸问题。好的，我每次剪头发都要强调头发的层层不好。尽管我明确地说，但他们总是做层次。也许我只需要对此变得更加简单。但是无论如何 - 因此，由于尝试层次，这就像蘑菇的效果。
Rosin: (Laughs.) I’m sorry. I’m sorry, yeah.
松果：（笑）。对不起。对不起，是的。
Khazan: (Laughs.) Anyway, so I’m leaving the hairstylist’s. I’m like, Oh my God. I look terrible. I had to go directly to the photo session, where I got professional photos taken that looked really bad, in my opinion, and then I had to, right away, drive on to the grocery store to get a bunch of groceries for dinner that night.
Khazan ：（笑）无论如何，我要离开发型师的。我想，哦，天哪。我看起来很糟糕。我不得不直接去照相会议，在我看来，我拍摄的是看上去真的很糟糕的专业照片，然后我必须马上开车去杂货店，当晚吃了一堆杂货店吃晚饭。
And as I was driving, I went the wrong way and got stuck on this island that cruise ships launch from. Then, once I recovered from that, I got to the grocery store, and as I was leaving, my shopping cart locked. And I had to drag the shopping cart across the parking lot to my car. And while this all was happening, my boss was Slacking me edits on a story. So I do these edits sitting in this hot car. I drive on, I get back to the Airbnb, and I just freak out.
当我开车时，我走了错误的路，被卡在巡游船上的岛上。然后，一旦我从中恢复过来，我到达了杂货店，当我离开时，我的购物车锁定了。而且我不得不将购物车拖到停车场上。尽管这一切都在发生，但我的老板在一个故事上懈怠了我的编辑。因此，我进行这些坐在这辆热车中的编辑。我开着开车，回到Airbnb，然后吓坏了。
Like, I honestly just had a meltdown—not a panic attack, but crying, chugging wine, just screaming, like, I hate everyone. And I settled down, eventually, and I was sort of like, Why do I react so badly to things that are kind of minor? Honestly, just even recounting that day as a new parent, I’m kind of like, Eh, so. That’s bad, but that’s not that bad.
就像，老实说，我只是崩溃了 - 不是惊恐发作，而是哭泣，嘶哑的葡萄酒，只是尖叫，就像，我讨厌所有人。最终我安顿下来，我有点像，为什么我对有点小事的反应如此糟糕？老实说，甚至在那天作为新父母叙述，我有点像，嗯，所以。那很糟糕，但这还不错。
And I kind of realized that it was my personality that was making days like that worse than they had to be, that was undermining my happiness in those moments.
我有点意识到，正是我的个性使那样的日子比他们必须更糟糕，在那一刻，我的幸福都破坏了我的幸福。
Rosin: Okay, I just wanna question that for one second: First of all, I’m sorry you had that day. It sucks, and I understand you just want to be frustrated. Like, you don’t wanna be screaming and crying. You don’t want to have a breakdown. You just wanna be casually frustrated. I think a lot of people, when they are sad or they feel unhappy, the traditional route is: See a shrink. Get on meds. You know—whatever—journal.
香香：好的，我只想质疑一秒钟：首先，对不起，您那天有。它很烂，我知道您只是想感到沮丧。就像，您不想尖叫和哭泣。您不想发生故障。您只想随便沮丧。我认为很多人，当他们感到难过或感到不高兴时，传统的路线是：缩水。上药。你知道 - 无论如何 -
I don’t think that I would have thought, Okay, it’s my actual personality. Like, to look at yourself, break your personality down, I mean, it’s interesting. It was an interesting response you had, and I’m wondering how you even knew in that moment to look at yourself and think, Oh, it’s my personality.
我认为我不会想，好吧，这是我的实际个性。就像看自己，打破个性，我的意思是，这很有趣。这是您的一个有趣的回应，我想知道您甚至在那一刻都知道自己看着自己，想想，哦，这是我的个性。
Khazan: Yeah, so, actually, seeing a shrink and taking medication do change your personality, also.
Khazan：是的，实际上，看到收缩并服用药物也会改变您的个性。
Rosin: Interesting!
松香：有趣！
Khazan: And that is to say that personality change is kind of the root of a lot of different types of personal growth and self-improvement. So what I was kind of describing just now is a high level of neuroticism, which I did have.
Khazan：那就是说，人格变化是许多不同类型的个人成长和自我完善的根源。因此，我刚才描述的是我确实拥有的高水平神经质。
And so bringing that down is personality change. And one way to do that is through therapy and medications. But I think kind of beyond just neuroticism, I was also just kind of unhappy with other parts of my life. Like, I honestly just didn’t socialize much. I kind of reflexively didn’t socialize.
因此，使人格的变化降低。一种方法是通过治疗和药物。但是我认为，不仅是神经质，我也对生活的其他部分感到不满。就像，老实说，我只是没有太多社交。我有点反身社交。
I didn’t have a lot of friends, which to me was a different thing than neuroticism. And then I kind of just was really snippy with my boyfriend at the time—my husband now—and honestly, would get in a lot of fights with my friends, which is, like, this other trait called “agreeableness.”
我没有很多朋友，对我而言，这与神经质不同。然后，我当时真的和我的男朋友（现在是我的丈夫）真的很艰难，说实话，会与我的朋友们进行很多战斗，这是另一个称为“同意”的特质。
So I don’t know. It felt more, like, all-encompassing than just the I need to handle my stress better.
所以我不知道。感觉更像是全能的，不仅仅是我需要更好地应对压力。
Rosin: Right. Okay. So you’ve been mentioning some of the main traits that you outline in your book. Can you just lay out the different components so we can follow you through this experiment?
松香：对。好的。因此，您一直在提及书中概述的一些主要特征。您可以简单地布置不同的组件，以便我们可以通过此实验来跟随您吗？
Khazan: So there’s five traits that make up personality, and we all have these five traits inside of us. And they can be remembered with the acronym OCEAN.
Khazan：因此，有五个构成个性的特征，我们都有这五个特征。他们可以用首字母缩写海洋来记住他们。
So it’s o for “openness to experiences,” which is like creativity and imaginativeness; c for “conscientiousness,” which is like being on time, being super organized, being really diligent; e for “extroversion,” so being sociable, cheerful, active; c for “agreeableness,” which is being warm and empathetic and trusting; and n for “neuroticism,” which is being neurotic, being anxious and depressed.
因此，“对经验开放”是o，就像创造力和想象力一样。C为“尽责”，就像准时，超级有条理，真的很勤奋一样；e用于“外向”，因此社交，开朗，活跃；c为“同意”，这是温暖，同情和信任的；n为“神经质”，这是神经质，焦虑和沮丧的。
Rosin: Okay. So that’s how you started to break your own problems down. Like, there’s this bucket, that bucket, that bucket. We won’t do the whole OCEAN of personality, but I really want to talk about a few that interest me the most. Maybe we’ll start with extroversion, because being outgoing is a common goal.
松香：好的。这就是您开始解决自己的问题的方式。就像，有一个水桶，那个水桶。我们不会做整个个性的海洋，但我真的很想谈论一些我最感兴趣的人。也许我们会从外向开始，因为外向是一个普遍的目标。
Lots of people say, Oh, I want to have more friends, particularly post-pandemic. How extroverted were you at the start of this process?
很多人说，哦，我想有更多的朋友，尤其是流行后。在此过程开始时，您的外向？
Khazan: Let me look up my exact score.
Khazan：让我查找我的确切分数。
Rosin: Oh, there were scores?
松香：哦，有分数吗？
Khazan: Yes!
卡赞：是的！
Rosin: Okay, so you actually get a number.
松香：好的，所以您实际上得到了一个数字。
Khazan: Yeah, when you take the personality test I was taking, you do get a number.
Khazan：是的，当您参加的个性测试时，您会得到一个数字。
Rosin: That’s a little brutal.
松香：有点残酷。
Khazan: Yeah. Oh, okay—I scored in the 23rd percentile, which is very low, especially when it came to being friendly or cheerful.
卡赞：是的。哦，好吧 - 我在第23个百分位数中得分，这很低，尤其是在友好或开朗时。
Rosin: Uh-huh. Interesting. Okay. (Laughs.) When you first got that number, how did that feel?
松香：嗯。有趣的。好的。（笑。）当您第一次获得这个数字时，感觉如何？
Khazan: I was like, That checks out.
Khazan：我当时都在检查。
Rosin: (Laughs.) Uh-huh. You weren’t surprised. Okay. So how did you go about this? Like, that’s the kind of thing where someone would say, Okay, well, I’m just not that extroverted, and one road would be acceptance: I’m just not that extroverted. I’m going to stay home and watch TV a lot.
松香：（笑）嗯。你并不感到惊讶。好的。那你是怎么做到的？就像，那是有人会说的那种事情，好吧，好吧，我不是那么外向，一条路就是接受：我不是那个外向。我要待在家里看电视很多。
Khazan: Yeah, and I did that road for a long time. So one kind of interesting twist here is that when psychologists take a bunch of introverts and they tell them, Go out and act like extroverts for a few minutes. Go socialize. Go hang out. And then they come back and they’re like, How do you feel? They actually say they feel happier. And they also say they feel more like themselves.
Khazan：是的，我做了很长时间。因此，这里的一种有趣的转折是，当心理学家拿着一堆内向的人告诉他们，外出行为外向，几分钟。去社交。出去玩。然后他们回来了，就像，您感觉如何？他们实际上说他们感到更快乐。他们还说他们感觉更像自己。
Rosin: Something about your saying that makes me nervous. I think it’s just because of the Susan Cain book Quiet, where we’ve come to appreciate the power of introverts, you know? What do you say about that?
松香：关于你的话，这让我感到紧张。我认为这仅仅是因为苏珊·凯恩（Susan Cain）的《安静》（Susan Cain Book）安静，我们开始欣赏内向的力量，你知道吗？你怎么说？
Khazan: So yeah, I really, really liked the book Quiet, and I really like Susan Cain personally. I just think that there are benefits for introverts to occasionally act like extroverts. I think it’s okay to still identify as an introvert and to appreciate all of the perks that come with that, but to also occasionally be able to at least try on this more outgoing personality trait.
Khazan：是的，我真的很喜欢这本书，我真的很喜欢苏珊·凯恩（Susan Cain）。我只是认为，性格内向的人偶尔会像性格外向的人一样好处。我认为仍然可以确定性格内向并欣赏随之而来的所有津贴，但偶尔也能够至少尝试以这种外向的性格特征。
Rosin: So when you set out to try and change this part of yourself, you know, raise your score—we’ll just put it that way, concretely—were you saying to yourself, I want to change Olga and make Olga not an introvert? Or, I want to try on extraversion sometimes, like a costume? Or, I want to change my score? Like, what was your goal?
松果：因此，当您着手尝试改变自己的部分时，您知道，提高自己的分数 - 我们会以这种方式说出它 - 您对自己说，我想改变Olga并使Olga不是内向的人？或者，有时我想像服装一样尝试外向性？或者，我想更改我的分数？就像，您的目标是什么？
Khazan: My goal was to change my score, so to be more extroverted. I didn’t think it would work well enough to make me an extrovert. In the end, I think my latest test that I took did put me technically in the extrovert category. But I didn’t think that it would work that well.
Khazan：我的目标是改变自己的分数，以便更加外向。我认为它的效果不佳，可以使我外向。最后，我认为我参加的最新测试确实使我成为外向的类别。但是我认为这会很好。
Rosin: Okay. So how did you do it?
松香：好的。那你是怎么做到的？
Khazan: I signed up for a bunch of activities and went to them. I signed up for improv comedy, a sailing club, a bunch of meetups. And I threw a party at my house for the first time.
Khazan：我报名参加了很多活动，然后去参加了他们。我报名参加Improv Comedy，帆船俱乐部，一堆聚会。我第一次在我家举行了聚会。
Rosin: Wow. And all the while, just so people understand what this kind of experiment is like, in case they want to try it, are you uncomfortable? Like, surely, you’re going against your, what you initially called, natural inclinations.
松香：哇。一直以来，人们了解这种实验是什么样的，如果他们想尝试一下，您是否感到不舒服？就像，当然，您会反对自己的自然倾向。
Khazan: So I ended up doing improv for about eight months or so. And probably for the first six months, every time I went, I felt this overwhelming sense of dread. Like, you almost wish that you could get in a car accident on the way there so that you wouldn’t have to go.
Khazan：所以我最终做了即兴表演大约八个月左右。大概在最初的六个月中，每次我去时，我都会感到这种压倒性的恐惧感。就像，您几乎希望您能在那里的途中发生车祸，这样您就不必去。
Rosin: That is extreme. I totally sympathize. I understand. Yeah.
松香：这是极端的。我完全同情。我明白。是的。
Khazan: Like, is there any way to get out of this? Any way? Like, Please, God, don’t make me go. Like, I have extreme stage fright. And so you get there, and you’re all sitting in a circle, and then at some point you get up, and you just start doing improv with the other people who are there.
Khazan：就像，有什么办法可以摆脱困境吗？反正？就像，上帝，上帝，不要让我走。就像，我有极端的舞台恐惧。因此，您到达那里，然后所有人都坐在圈子里，然后在某个时候起床，然后您就开始与其他人一起进行即兴表演。
Rosin: And the reason it helps you become extroverted is because it’s relational. Like, you have to be deeply attuned to this total stranger. You have to be on the stage. You have to perform. Like, it just forces you into actions that are extroverted.
松香：它可以帮助您外向的原因是因为它是关系的。就像，您必须对这个完全陌生人深深地满意。你必须在舞台上。你必须表演。就像，它只是迫使您采取外向的行动。
Khazan: Oh, yes, and it makes you become way more comfortable with chaos because everyday conversation is chaotic, but improv is even more chaotic than that.
Khazan：哦，是的，这使您对混乱变得更加满意，因为日常对话是混乱的，但是即兴表演比这更混乱。
Rosin: Right. And then, so let’s say the 20th time you’re going to improv class, does the initial dread fade, or it’s always that cycle?
松香：对。然后，假设您要第20次即兴上课，最初的恐惧会淡出，还是总是这样的周期？
Khazan: I think, over time, it did fade, but even before it completely went away naturally, I would start to feel it, and I would kind of tell myself, like, No, you’re gonna be fine. It’s just improv. It’s okay—you’re gonna feel good after. You know, it’s very similar to how I talk to my son now. It’s like, No, you like this formula. This is the good kind. (Laughs.)
Khazan：我认为，随着时间的流逝，它确实消失了，但是即使它完全消失了，我也会开始感觉到它，我会告诉自己，就像，不，您会没事的。只是即兴。没关系 - 您之后会感觉良好。你知道，这与我现在与儿子说话的方式非常相似。就像，不，您喜欢这个公式。这是一种很好的。（笑。）
Rosin: That’s so funny. So this is tricky to understand. So by the end, you’re doing it with a little bit less dread. You’re still talking yourself into it. You’re able to do it, so you’re not avoiding it; you’re doing it. You’re, at times, enjoying it, but it’s still not your natural inclination.
松果：太有趣了。因此，这很难理解。因此，到最后，您要做的事情要少一些。您还在说自己。您可以做到这一点，因此您不会避免它；你在做。您有时会喜欢它，但这仍然不是您的自然倾向。
Khazan: So I would say it’s not to do improv, but it’s to connect with other people when I’m feeling down. Like, if I’m feeling isolated and withdrawn, I don’t feel like the solution is just to spend more time by myself. I feel like it’s to connect with others and sort of get out of my head a little.
Khazan：所以我想说这不是即兴表演，但是当我感到沮丧时，它是要与其他人建立联系。就像，如果我感到孤立和撤回，我不会觉得解决方案只是一个人花更多的时间。我觉得这是与他人建立联系，并有点摆脱我的脑海。
Rosin: But that actually seems revolutionary. Like, if you think of one of our largest problems now, which is lack of connection, the idea that you can actually work at it, you know, approach it like a project and change it slowly, such that what you got—okay, maybe you’re not going to be on SNL, so that’s not your destiny—but what does change is that you don’t go deeper into yourself when you are feeling whatever you’re feeling. Like, you seek some kind of connection. And research does show that that’s healthy.
松果：但这实际上似乎是革命性的。就像，如果您想到我们现在最大的问题之一，那是缺乏联系，那么您可以真正地工作的想法，您知道，像项目一样对其进行处理并慢慢地改变它，以至于您得到的东西 - okay，也许您不会遇到SNL，这不是您的命运，但这不是您的命运 - 当您感到自己感觉时，您会不会更深入地进入自己的感觉。就像，您寻求某种联系。研究确实表明这是健康的。
Khazan: Yeah, and that’s kind of the science behind why extroverts tend to show up as happier. They kind of just spend a lot of time around other people, and other people tend to make us happy, even though we can all think of times when other people have not made us happy.
Khazan：是的，这就是为什么性格外向往往会更快乐的科学。他们只是在其他人周围花费大量时间，而其他人倾向于让我们快乐，即使我们都可以想到其他人没有让我们开心的时代。
But, you know, I’m really glad I did that before having a baby, because I think that my approach to new motherhood would have been totally different otherwise and much more isolating if I hadn’t done this experiment to see, Okay, actually, being around others and connecting socially, and even in a way that’s silly and doesn’t totally make sense is, like, still a good thing.
但是，您知道，我真的很高兴在生孩子之前做到了这一点，因为我认为我对新孕产的方法否则会完全不同，如果我没有做这个实验，可以看到，好的，实际上，实际上，与他人在一起并在社交上建立联系，甚至以一种愚蠢的方式，也没有完全理解的是，这仍然是一件好事。
Rosin: Oh, that’s amazing. What’s your extroversion score now?
松香：哦，太神奇了。您的外向分数是多少？
Khazan: Right now, my extroversion—it says it’s very high.
Khazan：现在，我的外向 - 说这很高。
Rosin: Very high. So it went from very low to very high.
松香：很高。因此，它从非常低的人变为非常高。
Khazan: Yes, it’s not in the top 10 percent. I would say it’s probably, like—I don’t know—60th percentile now.
Khazan：是的，它不在前10％。我想说的是，我不知道 - 现在是第60个百分点。
Rosin: I know, but you’re getting all ambitious now. Like, you want to be in the top ten percent.
松香：我知道，但是你现在变得雄心勃勃。就像，您想成为前百分之十。
Khazan: I didn’t get into the Harvard of extroversion. (Laughs.)
Khazan：我没有进入外向的哈佛。（笑。）
Rosin: Exactly. (Laughs.)
松香：到底。（笑。）
Khazan: But yeah.
卡赞：但是，是的。
Rosin: That’s amazing. Okay. Very, very impressed. And I feel like people should try it.
松果：太神奇了。好的。非常印象深刻。我觉得人们应该尝试一下。
[Music]
[音乐]
Rosin: So that was extroversion—the e in OCEAN. After the break, Olga takes us through another section of her book: the n—the negative, nervous, capital-n “Neurotics.”
松香：那是外向的 - 海洋中的E。休息后，奥尔加（Olga）带我们浏览了她的书的另一部分：n-消极，紧张，资本-N“神经药”。
[Break]
[休息]
Rosin: Okay. Let’s move on to the second trait that I want to talk about, which is neuroticism, the n of OCEAN. That is one that I think many people would like to change about themselves, myself included. What did your starting point there look like?
松香：好的。让我们继续谈论我想谈论的第二个特征，即神经质的海洋n。我认为很多人想改变自己，包括我自己。您那里的起点是什么样的？
Khazan: I think I scored higher than, like, literally everyone else on earth.
Khazan：我认为我的得分比地球上其他所有人都高得多。
Rosin: (Laughs.)
松香：（笑）。
Khazan: Oh, I was in the 94th percentile.
Khazan：哦，我是第94个百分位数。
Rosin: So you did get into the Harvard of neuroticism.
松香：因此，您确实进入了哈佛神经质的哈佛。
Khazan: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I’m graduating.
卡赞：是的。是的。是的，我正在毕业。
Rosin: Excellent. And we’re laughing, but the feeling—I mean, everyone’s version of neurotic is different, but can you talk a little bit about your own version? Like, what is it that bothered you about your neuroticism?
松香：太好了。我们在笑，但是感觉 - 我的意思是，每个人的神经质版本都不同，但是您能谈谈自己的版本吗？就像，您对神经质的困扰是什么？
Khazan: So I was basically always anxious. Like, there just wasn’t a time when I wasn’t anxious. I was constantly thinking about stuff in the future that could go wrong, or stuff in the past that did go wrong, and, like, Why did I allow it to go wrong? When good things would happen, there was no living in the moment or appreciating the good thing.
卡赞：所以我基本上总是焦虑。就像，只是我没有焦虑的时候。我一直在思考将来可能会出错的东西，或者过去确实出错的东西，就像为什么我要让它出错？当好事发生时，当时没有生活或欣赏好事。
It was, like, onto the next thing that could go wrong. Or like, Oh, this sunset is great, but the one yesterday was better. You know, like on vacation, we would get to some beautiful attraction or landmark of some kind, and I’d be like, Okay, what’s next?
就像在下一件事上可能会出错。或者，哦，这个日落很棒，但是昨天的日落更好。您知道，就像在度假一样，我们会获得某种美丽的景点或地标，我想，好吧，下一步是什么？
Rosin: Right.
松香：对。
Khazan: That kind of thing. Yeah.
Khazan：这种事情。是的。
Rosin: So you started out with Harvard-level, high-baseline neuroticism. This one is hard to face, I will say, so what was your process of trying to change it?
松香：因此，您是从哈佛水平的高基线神经质开始的。我会说，这很难面对，那么您试图改变它的过程是什么？
Khazan: So I followed this one study that’s been done on personality change, but a lot of those suggestions were, like, a lot of gratitude journaling—and I did do that—but a lot of it was also meditation.
Khazan：因此，我遵循了这项关于个性改变的研究，但是很多建议是很多感激日记，而我确实做到了 - 但其中很多也是冥想。
Rosin: Ugh.
松香：嗯。
Khazan: —which, I know.
Khazan： - 我知道。
Rosin: Is there anything else?
松香：还有其他吗？
Khazan: I know. I was, like, Seriously? I was diving so deep into the psychology. Is there something where I can, like, walk backwards for a mile and be cured?
卡赞：我知道。我很认真吗？我深入研究了心理学。有什么我可以的东西，例如，向后走一英里并被治愈吗？
Rosin: You know how there are headlines sometimes that are like: “This is the One Thing You Need to Do.” It’s always meditation. So I’m like, You’re not surprising me in this headline.
松果：您知道有时会有头条新闻：“这是您需要做的一件事。”总是冥想。所以我想，您在这个标题中并不奇怪。
Khazan: Yes, yes. Yeah, it’s always meditation. It was indeed meditation. So it was a meditation class that I took. It was, like, kind of like Buddhism for Dummies—like, during the day, we would all gather and they would do this PowerPoint with kind of very basic Buddhist ideas.
Khazan：是的，是的。是的，总是冥想。确实是冥想。所以这是我上的冥想课。就像佛教的佛教一样，就像白天一样，我们都会聚集在一起，他们会以一种非常基本的佛教观念来做这个PowerPoint。
And then, we had to meditate for 45 minutes a day.
然后，我们每天必须冥想45分钟。
[Music]
[音乐]
Rosin: As beginners?
松香：作为初学者？
Khazan: Yes.
卡赞：是的。
Rosin: That’s an intimidating amount of time.
松香：这是一个令人生畏的时间。
Khazan: It was really, really, really hard. I honestly don’t think I could do it with a kid now. I don’t really have 45 minutes anymore. But I think if people are trying this at home, I think they should start with way less, because it can feel so daunting that you’re like, Why even bother? You know? And there’s a lot of meditations out there that I also found effective that are much shorter, like 10 or 15 minutes.
Khazan：真的，真的，真的很难。老实说，我不认为我现在可以和一个孩子一起做。我真的没有45分钟了。但是我认为，如果人们在家尝试这个，我认为他们应该从少少开始，因为它会感到如此艰巨，以至于您喜欢，为什么还要打扰呢？你知道？而且，我还发现很多冥想，也有效得多，例如10或15分钟。
Rosin: So you, starting out as the person with high neuroticism, face meditation as a person who sees meditation all over the culture, so there’s already a barrier to entry. So how do you slide into that one? Because I actually understand the benefits of meditation; I just also understand the cultural ubiquity of meditation and, thus, the resistance to it, you know? So how do you sneak your way in so that it’s helpful?
松果：因此，您最初是具有高神经质的人，是一个在整个文化中都看到冥想的人，因此已经有一个进入障碍的人。那么您如何滑入那个呢？因为我实际上了解冥想的好处；我也只了解冥想的文化无处不在，因此，对它的抵抗力，您知道吗？那么，您如何偷偷溜走以使其有所帮助呢？
Khazan: Yeah, so I basically was, like, dragged kicking and screaming. And unlike with improv, I didn’t enjoy it at any point. So we would have these phone calls with our meditation teacher to see how things were going, and basically all my phone calls were all about how much I hated meditation.
Khazan：是的，所以我基本上就像在拖着踢和尖叫。而且与即兴演奏不同，我在任何时候都不喜欢它。因此，我们将与我们的冥想老师打电话，以了解情况的进展，基本上我所有的电话都与我讨厌冥想有关。
Rosin: Which is maybe neurotic, like—
松香：也许是神经质的，就像 -
Khazan: I’m not doing it right. I was like, Can I listen to music? Can I listen to a podcast? Can I wash the dishes? She’s like, No, you need to be there and, like, sit with whatever comes up. And whatever stuff she said, I was like, That doesn’t make any sense.
Khazan：我做得不对。我当时想，我可以听音乐吗？我可以听播客吗？我可以洗碗吗？她就像，不，您需要在那里，就像坐在那里一样。无论她说什么，我都喜欢，这没有任何意义。
We had an all-day meditation retreat, where all we did was meditate all day. It was, like, the worst day of my life. I hated it so much, like—oh my God. And they were—at one point I think they got frustrated with me, because they’re like: You sound like you’re striving, and you’re not supposed to strive in meditation.
我们进行了全天的冥想度假胜地，我们所做的只是整天进行冥想。就像我一生中最糟糕的一天一样。我非常讨厌它，就像 - 哦，我的上帝。他们是 - 我认为他们对我感到沮丧，因为他们就像：您听起来像是在努力，而且您不应该在冥想中努力。
And I was like, Yeah, of course I’m striving. So, yeah, it was just so hard and so painful. And it worked.
我当然想，我当然正在努力。所以，是的，它是如此的艰难和痛苦。它起作用了。
Rosin: Whoa! Okay, so can you describe how the turn happened? I think many people would want to know.
松香：哇！好吧，你能描述转弯的发生方式吗？我认为很多人想知道。
Khazan: So I don’t think there ever was a turn. I sort of hated it all the way through the retreat. And then I took the test not long after the retreat. And my neuroticism had actually fallen so much that it was considered low. It was in the 39th percentile.
卡赞：所以我认为从来没有转过身。我一直在整个静修处都讨厌它。然后，我在撤退后不久参加了考试。我的神经质实际上已经如此之多，以至于被认为很低。这是第39个百分点。
Rosin: Wait—you went from 97 percent to low?
松香：等等 - 您从97％升至低点？
Khazan: Yeah, I no longer scored, like, extremely high or whatever it was. But I will say, it was mostly because of a change in my depression score. Like, so I have really, really high anxiety, and I also had high depression, and my depression went down by a lot, and my anxiety also went down a little but not by as much.
Khazan：是的，我不再得分，例如，非常高。但是我会说，这主要是因为我的抑郁症得分发生了变化。就像，所以我确实有非常高的焦虑，而且我的抑郁症也很高，而且我的抑郁症减轻了很多，我的焦虑也有些沮丧，但没有太多。
Rosin: And what do you attribute that to? I mean, that’s amazing. Like, you know, going down on depression or anxiety is fantastic. So what do you attribute it to? Do you attribute it to the meditation or to the act of focusing on yourself for some amount of time so that you’re taking your depression seriously, or what was it?
松香：您将其归因于什么？我的意思是，太神奇了。就像，您知道，沮丧或焦虑是很棒的。那么您将其归因于什么？您是否将其归因于冥想或专注于自己的行为，以便您认真对待抑郁症，或者是什么？
Khazan: So two-part answer here. One is that—so this class that I took called MBSR has gone head-to-head with the antidepressant Lexapro, and it actually works, allegedly, as well as Lexapro. So there is kind of precedent for it bringing down anxiety and depression.
Khazan：这是两个部分的答案。一个是 - 所以我称之为MBSR的这堂课与抗抑郁药lexapro并驾齐驱，据称它实际上是有效的，以及Lexapro。因此，有一种先例来减轻焦虑和沮丧。
And I think the answer—maybe it was the meditation just working in the background, like sweeping away the cobwebs or whatever without me noticing. You know, because you’re supposed to just let your thoughts pass like clouds or whatever. But I think the more kind of immediately efficacious thing was that these Buddhism for Dummies lessons were very helpful for me.
而且我认为答案 - 也许这是在后台工作的冥想，就像扫除蜘蛛网或没有我注意到的任何东西一样。您知道，因为您应该让自己的思想像云一样通过。但是我认为，立即有效的事情是，这些佛教课程对我来说非常有帮助。
Even though I thought they were kind of stupid, I found them really helpful. And in particular, my meditation teacher would always say, Things happen that we don’t like. And I realized that I was someone who was very filled with self-blame for things not going the way they were, quote-unquote, “supposed” to go.
即使我认为它们有点愚蠢，我发现它们确实很有帮助。特别是，我的冥想老师总是会说，我们不喜欢的事情发生了。我意识到，我是一个非常充满自欺欺人的人，因为那些不按照自己的样子不采取行动，请Quote-Unquote“应该”去。
Like getting stuck in traffic—I would get this overwhelming rage at myself whenever I was stuck in traffic. And it was—it’s traffic. Like, you know, there’s nothing you can do about it. But I realized that I had this, I don’t know, wrong image of other people’s lives as perfect because they manage them perfectly, and that I’m the only one who can’t.
就像陷入交通一样 - 每当我陷入交通时，我都会对自己感到压倒性的愤怒。那是 - 它的交通。就像，您知道，您无能为力。但是我意识到，我不知道我有这个人的生活是完美的，因为他们完美地管理了他们，而且我是唯一一个不能的人。
And for some reason, this, like, PowerPoint-focused Buddhism class helped me get rid of some of that.
出于某种原因，这种以PowerPoint为重点的佛教课程帮助我摆脱了其中的一些。
Rosin: I believe everything the Buddhists say. I have never found any of it unhelpful. It’s always incredibly helpful if I can just get myself to sit down and pay attention.
松果：我相信佛教徒说的一切。我从来没有发现任何无济于事。如果我能让自己坐下来并注意，这总是非常有帮助的。
Khazan: Yes.
卡赞：是的。
Rosin: Okay, so basically, this experiment was successful for you.
松香：好的，基本上，这个实验对您来说是成功的。
Khazan: Yes, yes.
Khazan：是的，是的。
Rosin: And when did you do it?
松香：你什么时候做的？
Khazan: I did this right before I got pregnant.
Khazan：我在怀孕之前就这样做了。
Rosin: All right. So that’s an important marker. So that would be, like, two years ago you did this experiment. Now what has stayed with you about it?
松香：好的。这是一个重要的标记。因此，就像两年前您进行了此实验一样。现在与您息息相关？
Khazan: S I will say that right after I had Evan, my scores got all—like, I’m looking at my graphs of my scores, and there’s like a huge dip on all of them right after the baby came, because postpartum depression can affect all these things. Also, you’re not socializing, you’re not being nice, you’re not being conscientious, you’re not showering in that immediate postpartum period.
Khazan：S我会说，在我有Evan之后，我的分数得到了全部 - 就像我在看我的分数图，并且在婴儿来后，所有这些都大幅下降，因为产后抑郁症会影响所有这些事情。另外，您没有社交，您不友善，您没有尽职尽责，您在产后直接的时期不会洗澡。
So they all crashed and burned right after the baby came. But I actually just recently took the tests again. You know, he’s 1-year-old now, and I just took them again, like, a month ago. And they actually went back up—not quite to the level as they were when I was doing the book, but back up for the most part, I would say, across all the traits.
因此，婴儿来后，他们都坠毁并燃烧。但是我实际上只是最近再次参加了测试。你知道，他现在1岁，我只是在一个月前再次拿走了它们。实际上，他们回到了，不是像我在做这本书时那样达到水平，但是在大多数情况下，我会说，在所有特征上都备份。
And I think that’s just because I’ve been able lately to get back more into some of what I was doing for the book, not all of them.
我认为这仅仅是因为我最近能够更多地回到我为这本书所做的一些事情中，而不是全部。
Rosin: Interesting. Okay. So how you’re using this in your life, this whole experiment that you did, is: First of all, it convinced you that you can change things about elements of your personality. You know that to be true now. And so you have these markers, and they essentially serve as goals.
松香：有趣。好的。因此，您如何在生活中使用它，这是您所做的整个实验：首先，它说服您可以改变有关个性元素的事情。您知道这是真的。因此，您有这些标记，它们本质上是目标。
And if you’re finding yourself to be unhappy, then you can work on one or another of these goals. Like, it just allows you to be more self-aware, notice things about yourself. And it gives you some very concrete tools to fix it.
而且，如果您发现自己不开心，那么您可以实现其中一个或另一个目标。就像，它只会让您变得更加自我意识，注意到自己的事情。它为您提供了一些非常具体的工具来修复它。
Khazan: Yeah, that’s how I see it. And that’s—I mean, Nate Hudson, the researcher whose work kind of forms the backbone of the book, he really describes personality traits as tools. Like, they help you get what you want in life. Which is why I kind of shy away from the, like, Don’t change your personality if you like yourself, because, you know, I liked myself before, and I like myself now. But now I feel like I know how to get more out of life.
Khazan：是的，我就是这样。那就是 - 我的意思是，研究人员内特·哈德森（Nate Hudson）的工作形成了本书的骨干，他确实将个性特征描述为工具。就像，它们可以帮助您获得生活中想要的东西。这就是为什么我有点回避自己喜欢自己的个性，因为我知道，我以前喜欢自己，现在我喜欢自己。但是现在我觉得我知道如何摆脱生活。
Rosin: That’s really, really interesting. You wouldn’t have minded yourself if you’d been a somewhat isolated mother who didn’t see that many mothers.
松香：真的非常有趣。如果您是一个孤立的母亲，他们没有看到那么多母亲，您就不会介意自己。
Khazan: Yeah, I don’t think I would’ve. You know, I think I would have had a much lonelier and more stressful postpartum experience. I think I would have just thought that’s what it is like.
Khazan：是的，我认为我不会。你知道，我认为我会有更孤独，更加压力的产后经历。我想我会以为那就是这样。
Rosin: Like, that’s Olga’s version of parenting, and that’s okay. Like, you wouldn’t have hated yourself for it.
松果：就像，那是奥尔加的育儿版本，没关系。就像，您不会为此而讨厌自己。
Khazan: Yeah, exactly. But instead what I did is I joined this new-moms group, and in general I just have made more of a point of reaching out to other new moms, and just kind of getting together as much as possible, or even just keeping in touch over WhatsApp or whatever—sharing experiences or just, like, What the hell is this? Is this normal? That type of stuff.
Khazan：是的，正是。但是我所做的是我加入了这个新的梅姆斯小组，总的来说，我只是想与其他新妈妈接触，并且尽可能多地聚在一起，甚至只是与WhatsApp或其他任何联系 - 分享的经历，或者，分享的经历，或者只是，像，这是什么呢？这是正常的吗？那种类型的东西。
That has honestly made it so much less bad, I think, and less isolating. Like, I wouldn’t say that I have a village, but it’s just nice to not feel like you’re the only person in the world who’s ever had a baby.
老实说，我认为这使情况变得越来越少了，而且孤立的却越来越少。就像，我不会说我有一个村庄，但是不觉得您是世界上唯一有孩子的人，真是太好了。
Rosin: Yeah. So you have the advantage of going into motherhood with all of this understanding of personality. Have you found yourself talking about your son or thinking about your son with some of this research in mind?
松果：是的。因此，您可以将所有对个性的理解进入母性。您是否发现自己在谈论您的儿子或考虑一些研究的儿子？
Khazan: Yeah, you know, Evan is very smiley, and he’s just very happy. He smiles very easily. He smiles at people he knows and likes. And my parents tell me that I was not like that. (Laughs.)
Khazan：是的，您知道，Evan非常笑脸，他很高兴。他很容易微笑。他对自己认识和喜欢的人微笑。我的父母告诉我我不是那样。（笑。）
Rosin: (Laughs.) Thanks, Mom. Yeah.
松香：（笑）谢谢，妈妈。是的。
Khazan: So the way I talk about it, I’m like, Oh, he gets that from my husband, Rich. And I don’t know. I’m just like, I really—sorry, I’m trying not to choke up.
Khazan：所以我谈论它的方式，我想，哦，他从我丈夫有钱人那里得到了。我不知道。我真的很像，我真的很重要，我试图不窒息。
Rosin: That’s okay.
松果：没关系。
Khazan: I really, like, want to not mess that up for him. Like, I want to—I don’t know. Sorry.
Khazan：我真的很想不要为他搞砸。就像，我想 - 我不知道。对不起。
Rosin: No, that’s okay. You want to keep him happy.
松果：不，没关系。你想让他快乐。
Khazan: Yeah, not keep him happy, but I hope that that continues. I don’t know.
Khazan：是的，不要让他开心，但我希望那会继续下去。我不知道。
Rosin: Yeah. No, I thought you were going somewhere different. I thought what you were going to say is, I don’t want to think about his personality as fixed. Like, I want to allow him—like, if he wants to be unhappy, or if he wants to be a different way, or throw a temper tantrum, that’s okay. Like, I will keep in mind that we can, you know, move towards a goal later.
松果：是的。不，我以为你要去的地方。我以为你要说的是，我不想考虑他的个性是固定的。就像，我想允许他 - 就像，如果他想不开心，或者他想成为另一种方式或发脾气，那没关系。就像，我会记住的是，以后我们可以朝着一个目标前进。
But I think what you’re saying is more simple and beautiful, and I appreciate that. I’m sorry that your mom was—it was like when my mom used to tell me how much cuter my brother was than me as a baby, every single time we look at baby pictures.
但是我认为您的意思更加简单和美丽，我很感激。对不起，你妈妈是 - 就像我妈妈曾经告诉我每次看婴儿图片时，我的兄弟比我小比我更可爱了。
Khazan: Lovely.
卡赞：可爱。
Rosin: Yeah. Well, Olga, thank you so much. I feel like this will inspire a lot of people to try it. So thank you so much for writing it down.
松果：是的。好吧，奥尔加，非常感谢。我觉得这会激发很多人尝试。因此，非常感谢您写下来。
Khazan: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having me on.
Khazan：是的，绝对。非常感谢您让我继续前进。
[Music]
[音乐]
Rosin: This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. We had engineering support from Rob Smierciak and fact-checking by Genevieve Finn. Claudine Ebeid is the executive producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
松金：这一集《大西洋广播》是由凯文·汤森（Kevin Townsend）制作的，由克劳丁·埃贝德（Claudine Ebeid）编辑。我们得到了Rob Smierciak的工程支持，以及Genevieve Finn的事实检查。Claudine Ebeid是Atlantic Audio的执行制片人，Andrea Valdez是我们的执行编辑。
Listeners, if you like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, remember you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic at TheAtlantic.com/listener.
听众，如果您喜欢大西洋广播中听到的信息，请记住，当您在theatlantic.com/listener订阅大西洋时，您可以支持我们的作品和所有大西洋记者的作品。
I’m Hanna Rosin. Thank you for listening.
我是Hanna Rosin。谢谢你的聆听。
