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Read Jeffrey Goldberg’s related article about Ken Casey.
阅读Jeffrey Goldberg关于Ken Casey的相关文章。
There are more and less reckless ways for a musician to meddle in politics. The safer ways are to drop an endorsement in an interview (Taylor Swift for Joe Biden), make a supportive video (Beyoncé for Barack Obama), maybe even make a video with the candidate himself (Cardi B. and Bernie Sanders). Recently, Ken Casey, the front man for the Celtic punk band Dropkick Murphys, chose a way that could have started a fist fight. The band has been around for three decades and has its working-class roots in Quincy, Massachusetts. In recent years, Casey has noticed the degree to which his largely white, male, working-class fan base has drifted to the MAGA right. Casey, meanwhile, did not. At concerts, the band often dedicates its song “First Class Loser” to Donald Trump, and it sells T-shirts that say Fighting Nazis since 1996. So when Casey saw a fan at one of his concerts wearing a MAGA shirt, he called him out in front of the crowd and made him a bet.
音乐家有越来越多的鲁ck方式干预政治。更安全的方法是在采访中放弃认可（乔·乔·拜登（Joe Biden）的泰勒·斯威夫特（Taylor Swift）），制作支持视频（碧昂丝（Barack Obama）的碧昂丝（Barack Obama）），甚至可能与候选人本人制作视频（Cardi B.和Bernie Sanders）。最近，凯尔特朋克乐队Dropkick Murphys的主持人肯·凯西（Ken Casey）选择了一种可能开始拳头的方式。乐队已经存在了三十年，并且在马萨诸塞州昆西的工人阶级根源。近年来，凯西（Casey）注意到他的白人男性，工人阶级的粉丝群在玛格（Maga）上的程度。同时，凯西没有。在音乐会上，乐队经常将其歌曲“一流的失败者”献给唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump），并卖出了T恤，说自1996年以来与纳粹作战。因此，当凯西（Casey）穿着玛格（Maga）衬衫在他的一场音乐会上看到一位粉丝时，他叫他在人群面前，让他下注。
In this episode of Radio Atlantic, The Atlantic’s editor in chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, talks to Casey about that bet, about watching his fans and people he loves fall in love with Trump, and about how Democrats might be able to win them back.
在这一集《大西洋广播电台》中，大西洋的主编杰弗里·戈德堡（Jeffrey Goldberg）与凯西（Casey）谈论了这个赌注，观看他的粉丝和他喜欢的人爱上了特朗普，以及民主党人如何能够赢得他们的胜利。
The following is a transcript of the episode:
以下是该集的成绩单：
Hanna Rosin: I’m Hanna Rosin. This is Radio Atlantic, and The Atlantic’s editor in chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, is really into Celtic punk music. Who knew? He listens to one band in particular when he’s getting ready for work.
汉娜·罗辛（Hanna Rosin）：我是汉娜·罗辛（Hanna Rosin）。这是大西洋广播电台，大西洋的总编辑杰弗里·戈德堡（Jeffrey Goldberg）确实喜欢凯尔特朋克音乐。谁知道？当他准备上班时，他特别听一支乐队。
Jeffrey Goldberg: I listen to them in the morning when I’m trying to wake up. “The Boys Are Back” and “Smash Shit Up,” or whatever are good songs to listen to in the morning when you’re trying to get motivated.
杰弗里·戈德堡（Jeffrey Goldberg）：当我想醒来时，我在早上听他们的话。“男孩回来了”和“砸死”，或者在您试图激发动力时在早晨听的任何好歌。
Rosin: Those songs are by Dropkick Murphys, who, by the way, have an album out this week. Their front man is Ken Casey. Jeff saw a clip one day of Casey doing something interesting at one of his shows, something Jeff thought was unusual, risky, maybe even brave.
松香：这些歌曲是Dropkick Murphys的作品，顺便说一句，他本周发行了一张专辑。他们的前任是肯·凯西（Ken Casey）。杰夫（Jeff）有一天看到凯西（Casey）在他的一场演出中做一些有趣的事情，杰夫（Jeff）认为这是不寻常，冒险甚至勇敢的事情。
[“Smash Shit Up,” by Dropkick Murphys]
[Dropkick Murphys的“ Smash屎”]
Rosin: Wait, you just called up Ken Casey one day? Why were you interested in him?
松香：等等，您有一天刚打电话给Ken Casey吗？你为什么对他感兴趣？
Goldberg: If you actually want to know the real reason why—do you want to know the real reason why?
戈德堡：如果您真的想知道真正的原因 - 您想知道真正的原因吗？
Rosin: I do, because I don’t pin you as a hardcore fan.
松果：我愿意，因为我不将您固定为铁杆粉丝。
Goldberg: There is no bigger fan of Celtic punk music in this podcast studio than this guy. But the real reason I’m interested in this is: I admire people who try to say something explicit with their music. Obviously, explicit to a degree. If it becomes just a platform, then it’s not very interesting music. Not very interesting lyrically.
戈德堡：在这个播客工作室中，凯尔特朋克音乐没有比这个家伙更大的粉丝。但是我对此感兴趣的真正原因是：我钦佩那些试图用音乐明确说些什么的人。显然，在一定程度上明确。如果它只是一个平台，那不是很有趣的音乐。在抒情上不是很有趣。
Rosin: So your interest is in the music being political, not, like, a musician being political. Because it’s actually really tricky to make political art. It’s a legitimate question that a lot of artists face—like, Do I say anything about the election?
松果：因此，您的兴趣是音乐是政治性的，而不是音乐家是政治的。因为制作政治艺术实际上确实很棘手。这是许多艺术家面临的合理问题 - 就像我对选举有什么说法吗？
Goldberg: I mean, yes, in this case, in Dropkick Murphys’ case, it’s both. Ken Casey will go out onstage and talk overtly politically, about even trade policy, but also the music, especially in this latest album. So yeah, and by the way, it’s kind of easy for performers to go out and make anodyne statements about this or that in politics and have their music be about things other than the politics. Obviously, when you make political music, you’re going to drive away some people. That’s just the nature of it, and it’s not in the nature of commercial music to drive away anyone.
戈德堡：我的意思是，是的，在这种情况下，在Dropkick Murphys的案子中，这两者兼而有之。肯·凯西（Ken Casey）将在舞台上出去，在政治上公开谈论，甚至是贸易政策，也是音乐，尤其是在这张最新专辑中。是的，顺便说一句，表演者很容易出去对此或政治中的厌恶陈述，并让他们的音乐与政治之外的事物有关。显然，当您制作政治音乐时，您将开车离开一些人。这就是它的本质，而不是商业音乐的本质来驱逐任何人。
[“I’m Shipping Up to Boston,” by Dropkick Murphys]
[“我要运送到波士顿”，作者：Dropkick Murphys]
Rosin: Okay, that’s enough of me. Here’s Jeff talking to Casey.
松果：好的，我足够了。这是杰夫与凯西交谈。
Goldberg: Are you sick of talking about “[I’m] Shipping Up to Boston” and The Departed?
戈德堡：您是否厌倦了谈论“我要运送到波士顿”和离开的人？
Ken Casey: Not really. People say, “Do you get sick of that song?” and I say, “No, the key to that song is it’s two minutes.” Actually, when we play it live, it’s one minute and 50 seconds.
肯·凯西（Ken Casey）：不是真的。人们说：“你厌倦了那首歌吗？”我说：“不，那首歌的关键是两分钟。”实际上，当我们现场演奏时，它是一分钟50秒。
[“I’m Shipping Up to Boston,” by Dropkick Murphys]
[“我要运送到波士顿”，作者：Dropkick Murphys]
Casey: So it’s over before it starts. You know, I would hate to have like your biggest hit be—
凯西：所以它已经结束了。你知道，我不喜欢你最大的打击 -
Goldberg: “Stairway to Heaven.”
戈德堡：“通往天堂的楼梯。”
Casey: Yeah, I mean, even our second-most-popular song, “Rose Tattoo,” is over five minutes. And I can see, sometimes by the end of that, as much as I love the song, I’m like, Fuck, I wish this was shorter like “Shipping Up to Boston.”
凯西：是的，我的意思是，即使是我们第二名的歌曲“ Rose Tattoo”，都超过五分钟。我可以看到，有时到最后，就像我喜欢这首歌一样，我就像，他妈的，我希望这更短，就像“运送到波士顿”。
But no, I think if there’s any way for a punk band to kind of break through another level of success, it’s pretty cool when it’s an Oscar-winning movie by one of your favorite directors about the city you’re from.
但是不，我认为，如果朋克乐队有任何方法可以突破另一个成功层面，那么当您最喜欢的一位关于您来自城市的导演之一是奥斯卡奖的电影时，这真是太酷了。
Goldberg: Talk about Woody Guthrie and how you built on Woody Guthrie to write that song.
戈德堡：谈论伍迪·古斯里（Woody Guthrie）以及您如何在伍迪·古斯里（Woody Guthrie）上构建那首歌。
Casey: One of the things that attracted me to punk rock and attracted me to Irish music was that protest element and rebel element to a lot of it. And then that’s how I stumbled onto a lot of the American protest singers and Woody being the leader of that pack. And then we get a phone call one day in the early 2000s from Woody’s daughter Nora, and she said, “I’d like to offer the band the opportunity to come down and see my father’s archives of unpublished lyrics that he never put to music.” And I was like, Is this a joke? Is someone punking us here?
凯西：吸引我到朋克摇滚并吸引我去爱尔兰音乐的一件事是抗议元素和反叛元素。然后，这就是我偶然发现了许多美国抗议歌手，伍迪是那包的领导者。然后，在2000年代初，我们从伍迪的女儿诺拉（Nora）接到电话，她说：“我想为乐队提供机会下来，看看我父亲的未出版歌词的档案，他从未演奏过音乐。”我当时想，这是个玩笑吗？有人在这里骗我们吗？
And I got to go down. The archives at the time were still in New York City and, you know, the original papers he wrote the songs on. You could see the stains on the papers. You could literally, Nora says, you can smell, like, Did he write this near the ocean? Did he write this in Oklahoma? or whatever. And so it was just a really unique look into his whole work.
我必须倒下。当时的档案馆仍在纽约市，您知道，他写了歌曲的原始论文。您可以在纸上看到污渍。诺拉说，您可以从字面上看，您可以闻到他在海边附近写了这封信吗？他在俄克拉荷马州写这篇文章吗？或其他。因此，这对他的整个作品来说是一个非常独特的外观。
And we don’t often write music first. It’s usually lyrics first and the melody, and then we shape the song around it. But we had written the music to “[I’m] Shipping Up to Boston,” and we were just waiting for me to write some words. And I flipped through, and here’s this song, “Shipping Up to Boston,” which stood out so much because it was so short and so, kind of, silly. And one of the keys to that song’s success is there are huge instrumental sections in the song that really make you wait for the chorus.
而且我们不经常首先写音乐。通常是歌词和旋律，然后我们围绕它塑造歌曲。但是我们已经为“ [我]运送到波士顿”的音乐写了音乐，我们只是在等我写一些话。然后我翻了个眼笑，这是这首歌“运送到波士顿”，这是如此之所以脱颖而出，是因为它是如此短，所以，有点愚蠢。这首歌成功的关键之一是，这首歌中有巨大的乐器部分使您真正等待合唱。
I know that if I was writing the lyrics to that, I wouldn’t have ever left that space. I would’ve written a pre-chorus there, and you wouldn’t have had that wait for the payoff. But obviously when we chose to put Woody’s lyrics in there, there were no other lyrics to add in.
我知道，如果我写歌词，我就不会离开那个空间。我本来会在那里写一份前赌场，而您不会等待回报。但是显然，当我们选择将伍迪的歌词放在那里时，没有其他歌词要添加。
[“I’m Shipping Up to Boston,” by Dropkick Murphys]
[“我要运送到波士顿”，作者：Dropkick Murphys]
So you had the four-line verse and then you had the “Shipping Up to Boston” chorus, which, I wish he had a note of what he was singing about on that song.
因此，您拥有四行诗歌，然后您就获得了“运送到波士顿”合唱团，我希望他在那首歌上唱着他在唱歌的内容。
[“I’m Shipping Up to Boston,” by Dropkick Murphys]
[“我要运送到波士顿”，作者：Dropkick Murphys]
Goldberg: I was interviewing Bruce Springsteen once on the subject of Stevie Van Zandt, and I was writing about Little Steven and about how he was doing overtly political music. And I’ll always remember what Bruce said. He said, “Writing political music is a hard slog through muddy waters.” He was praising Steven. And you—you guys are one of the few bands that goes right at it. I mean, you use metaphor and you use allusion, but you’re really going at it, especially on this new album; and I’m wondering, is it a hard slog? Are you giving up something commercially by voicing your actual opinions about the world?
戈德堡：我曾经在史蒂夫·范·赞特（Stevie Van Zandt）的主题上采访布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀（Bruce Springsteen），我正在写关于小史蒂文（Little Steven）的文章，以及他如何表演公开的政治音乐。我将永远记得布鲁斯说的话。他说：“写政治音乐在泥泞的水域中很难。”他称赞史蒂文。而您 - 您是为数不多的乐队之一。我的意思是，您使用隐喻，并且使用了典故，但是您确实在继续使用，尤其是在这张新专辑中。我想知道，这是一个艰难的口号吗？您是否通过向世界发表实际意见来放弃商业上的某些东西？
Casey: Well, I do think from a timelessness sense, we do try to do it in a not naming names and dates—
凯西：嗯，我确实从永恒的意义上考虑，我们确实尝试用不命名的名称和日期来做到这一点 -
Goldberg: No, I know you’re not going to come out against tariffs on a Tuesday, or something.
戈德堡：不，我知道您不会在星期二违反关税。
Casey: Right. But everyone knows what we’re talking about when we do it and why we do it. And yes, I like to say that the band started in ’96; our goal was to be a little bit different, in the sense that we spoke for people that were living life in the middle class or working-class people. And so if you start your band on that, and you’ve held to those ideals for coming—next year it’ll be 30 years—and you’ve done that the whole 30 years, and then you get to this era and you’re going to back down from it? It’s almost like the whole thing seems like it was meant to be a test run for the time we’re in now. So for us to not go out on a limb about it would sell like our whole career short, you know? And will it eventually hurt us, or whatever? Who’s to say? I kind of look at it the way I look at reviews or comments on your social media. It’s like, you can’t pay attention to it. You just gotta do what feels instinctually right and right in your heart.
凯西：对。但是每个人都知道我们在做什么以及为什么这样做。是的，我想说乐队始于96年。从某种意义上说，我们的目标是有点不同，从某种意义上说，我们为在中产阶级或工人阶级生活中生活的人们所说的。因此，如果您开始乐队，并且您一直坚持这些理想的到来 - 第二年将是30年 - 并且您已经完成了整个30年的工作，然后您到达这个时代，您将退缩？这几乎就像整个事情似乎是我们现在所在的时间的测试。因此，对于我们来说，不要像我们整个职业生涯的短暂销售那样闲逛，您知道吗？最终会伤害我们吗？谁说？我有点像在您的社交媒体上看评论或评论的方式。就像，您无法关注它。您只需要在内心本能地和直接地做到的事情。
And I say this to Trumpers all the time that I know enough to have a conversation with at least or bother to. I say, Listen, you don’t like our opinion? You don’t like what we have to say? Most of you used to, by the way, before, you know everything changed when that guy came down the escalator. But regardless of what you think of our message, you’ve got to know that this band wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for these core beliefs. And so a lot of music that you do like came out of that fire.
我一直对弹奏者说，我知道至少至少与之交谈或不愿意。我说，听着，你不喜欢我们的意见吗？您不喜欢我们要说的话吗？顺便说一句，你们大多数人以前都知道，当那个家伙走下自动扶梯时，一切都改变了。但是，无论您对我们的信息有何看法，您都必须知道，如果不是这些核心信念，那么这个乐队就不会存在。因此，您喜欢的很多音乐都来自那场大火。
[“Who’ll Stand With Us?,” by Dropkick Murphys]
[“谁会和我们站在一起？”
In the new single, “Who’ll Stand With Us?,” like, look at the words: We’re singing about people being oppressed by those in power with wealth that we could never imagine. Who’s got a problem with that?
在新的单曲“谁会和我们站在一起？”中，例如：我们唱歌：我们在唱歌，人们被人们所拥有的财富的人压迫我们永远无法想象。谁有问题？
[“Who’ll Stand With Us?,” by Dropkick Murphys]
[“谁会和我们站在一起？”
Goldberg: You have gotten into direct confrontations with fans at shows over your politics and their politics. In today’s age, that’s pretty rare. Money comes first; popularity comes first. Any doubt ever about the path you’ve now set yourself on?
戈德堡：您已经在政治及其政治上与歌迷直接与歌迷进行对抗。在当今时代，这很少见。钱是第一位的；受欢迎程度是第一个。对您现在所采取的道路有任何疑问吗？
Casey: I get back to the fact that we’re singing these songs that I believe in my heart of hearts are what represents regular, ordinary people.
凯西（Casey）：我回到一个事实，那就是我们正在唱歌这些我相信我内心深处的歌曲，这代表了普通的普通人。
And when I see someone—and by the way, I’m not out there saying, Hey, you in the front row, who’d you vote for? You know what I mean? But like when someone comes to protest back with a MAGA shirt in the front row, it’s like—
当我见到某人时 - 顺便说一句，我不是在那儿说，嘿，你在前排，你投票给谁？你知道我的意思？但是，就像有人在前排抗议杂志衬衫时一样，就像 -
Goldberg: They know what they’re doing.
戈德堡：他们知道自己在做什么。
Casey: They know what they’re doing.
凯西：他们知道自己在做什么。
Goldberg: And you know that they know what they’re doing.
戈德堡：而且您知道他们知道自己在做什么。
Casey: Sure. Yeah. And then of course those are the ones that have gone viral, but there’s other nights when I just talk from the stage. And listen, I understand there’s an amount of people that’ll say, this is the counterargument: Hey, you know what? I worked all week. I paid my money to come see music. I don’t want to hear you shove your politics down my throat. And I can respect that to a degree. For the most part of our career, we’ve always said, we’ll leave our politics to the lyrics. Because we’ve been pretty overtly political. So if you read the lyrics, you know, and I do think sometimes you get more people to your side that way. Because you, you know, it’s like fishing. You’re just dangling the carrot. You’re not clubbing the fish over the head. However, at this point in time, it’s like, the alarm bells are ringing.
凯西：当然。是的。当然，那些已经传播过的人，但是在其他夜晚，我只是从舞台上说话。听着，我知道有很多人会说，这是反对：嘿，你知道吗？我整个星期工作。我付钱看音乐。我不想听到你把你的政治推向我的喉咙。我可以在一定程度上尊重这一点。我们一直在说，在我们职业生涯的大部分时间里，我们将把政治留给歌词。因为我们非常公开。因此，如果您阅读歌词，您知道，我确实认为有时候您会以这种方式吸引更多的人。因为你知道，这就像钓鱼。您只是在悬挂胡萝卜。您不是在头上踢鱼。但是，在这个时间点，就像，警钟正在响。
[“Rose Tattoo,” by Dropkick Murphys]
[Dropkick Murphys的“玫瑰纹身”]
Rosin: So what’s interesting to you about Ken Casey is he is taking a risk, like essentially he’s putting himself out there and possibly turning off his own fan base.
松果：关于肯·凯西（Ken Casey），他很有趣的是他正在冒险，就像他本质上是在把自己放在那里，并可能关闭自己的粉丝群。
Goldberg: Well, he literally does turn off some of his own fan base and doesn’t seem to care, which I admire these days. I happen to admire anyone who will risk alienating, let’s say, MAGA America for a point. I’m not trying to be overly partisan or political here. I’m just saying that it’s very interesting that he and the whole band will put their money where their mouth is. And he also has—and this is what I admire about him—he has a large-heartedness about it.
戈德堡：好吧，他确实关闭了自己的一些粉丝群，并且似乎不在乎，这些天我很佩服。我碰巧钦佩任何会冒着疏远美国杂志的人的风险。我并不想在这里过分党派或政治。我只是说他和整个乐队都会把钱放在他们的嘴里很有趣。而且他还拥有 - 这就是我对他的钦佩 - 他对此有着极大的态度。
He’s not one of these, They’re all deplorable kind of people. I was having a hard time adjusting to the idea that Trump had won yet again, and after all the ink we had spilled about the dangers of Trumpism, right? And then I realized that I just like Americans and I like America, and so I’m just going to figure my way through this and not going to be hard-hearted about it. And what I saw in Ken Casey was a model of how one could be in these circumstances.
他不是其中之一，他们都是可悲的人。我很难适应特朗普再次获胜的想法，在所有墨水之后，我们散发出了关于特朗普主义的危险，对吗？然后我意识到我就像美国人一样，我喜欢美国，所以我将弄清楚这一点，而不会对此感到艰苦。我在肯·凯西（Ken Casey）中看到的是在这种情况下的模型。
I find him to be a thoughtful person and a patriotic person, and a guy who makes really loud, interesting music, even though he is already in his 50s, I guess. So I admire that, being personally in my 50s.
我发现他是一个有思想的人和一个爱国的人，一个人做出非常响亮，有趣的音乐的家伙，即使他已经50多岁了。因此，我很佩服，在我50多岁时。
[“Rose Tattoo,” By Dropkick Murphys]
[Dropkick Murphys的“玫瑰纹身”]
Rosin: After the break: Casey makes a wager with a fan.
松果：休息后：凯西用风扇发出赌注。
[Break]
[休息]
Rosin: Okay, we’re back. Jeff is asking Casey what it has been like for him to watch friends and loved ones shift from being moderate Democrats to fully embracing Trump.
松果：好的，我们回来了。杰夫（Jeff）问凯西（Casey），他看着朋友和亲人从温和的民主党人转向完全拥抱特朗普的情况。
Casey: Even when my friends, for example, would’ve been considered center-left Democrats, I think I was probably a little bit more on the more progressive side of them. Partially because of my world travels, you know what I mean? Like, you know, you change when you see the world and see things outside of your own backyard.
凯西：例如，即使我的朋友们被认为是左翼民主党人，我也认为我在他们进步的方面可能有些进步。部分原因是我的世界旅行，你知道我的意思吗？就像，您知道，当您看到世界并在您自己的后院外面看到事物时，您会改变。
But as I noticed that shift happening, it was the classic example of the playbook of division in politics where the right told white, center Democrats, These people don’t care about you. They’re not there for you. White men are on the way out. You know what I mean?
但是，正如我注意到的那种转变发生的那样，这是政治部门剧本的经典例子，右派告诉怀特，中间民主党人，这些人不在乎您。他们不在你身边。白人正在出门。你知道我的意思？
And then they started to use, of course, the other tropes of race and sexuality and trans. And just, little by little, I feel like a lot of these white, working-class Democrats just crept over, saying, Well, at least these guys want me. And yeah, they want you, but they really just want to use you, you know?
然后，他们当然开始使用种族，性和跨性别的其他比喻。只是一点一点地，我觉得很多这样的白人工人阶级的民主党人只是爬了过去，说，至少这些家伙想要我。是的，他们想要您，但他们真的只是想使用您，您知道吗？
Goldberg: Do you think the Democrats don’t want them?
戈德堡：您认为民主党人不想要他们吗？
Casey: I don’t think it’s that. I think that the Republicans have just done a great job at lying to them to make them feel—and listen obviously we can’t speak this broadly for this many people. There’s some people that just chose racism above all. Holy crap, this guy makes it okay for me to say the horrible things I used to have to whisper to my friends? Yeah, I’m voting against what’s best for my family, my pension, everything else, but I want to be able to speak loud about this stuff, you know? But you’ve got to tip your cap, man. They’ve pulled it off. They’ve tricked a lot of people.
凯西：我认为不是这样。我认为共和党人刚刚向他们撒谎以使他们感到非常出色 - 显然，我们不能为这么多人讲话。有些人最重要的是选择种族主义。神圣的废话，这个家伙让我可以说我过去不得不向朋友耳语的可怕事情吗？是的，我正在反对最适合我的家人，我的退休金，其他一切，但我想能够大声谈论这些事情，您知道吗？但是，您必须要小费，伙计。他们已经完成了。他们欺骗了很多人。
Goldberg: Well, look, recognizing that, actually, your job is to be a Celtic punk rocker and not a Democratic political party strategist. I will ask you, nevertheless: There’s a crisis for the Democrats in that white men especially, but also Black men and Hispanic men, don’t think that the party is pro-male.
戈德堡：好吧，看，认识到，实际上，您的工作是成为凯尔特人的朋克摇滚歌手，而不是民主党的政党战略家。尽管如此，我会问你：尤其是那个白人，还有黑人和西班牙裔男人，民主党人遇到了危机，不要以为该党是亲玛利的。
I recognize what you’re saying about the Republicans and the plays that they’re running, but if you were telling the Democrats what to do, what plays would you run to counteract that?
我认识到您对共和党人和他们正在奔放的戏剧的看法，但是如果您告诉民主党人该怎么做，那么您会付出什么来抵消这一点？
Casey: Well, by the way, it gets back to that point—and I often say this, when you did mention You're a guy from a band—there’s really nothing I’d rather be talking about less than where we’re at right now. So when people think I’m onstage yapping away because I want to be talking about it—trust me, I don’t.
凯西：好吧，顺便说一句，它回到了这一点 - 我经常这么说，当您提到您是一个乐队的家伙时，我真的没有什么宁愿谈论的，而不是现在我们的位置。因此，当人们认为我在舞台上大吃一惊，因为我想谈论它 - 我没有信任我。
But, anyway, if I was to say as someone who has a majority white, male fan base, the band, I would say that—I mean, are we talking about what’s right or wrong, or are we talking about what you need to win an election? If we’re talking about what you need to win an election, I guess you do have to bring the olive branch out to say that, you know, masculine guys in the trades are not vilified. And I don’t necessarily think they have been, but I look at a guy like a friend of mine, Sean O’Brien from the Teamsters, and he spoke at the Republican Convention. And he’ll say, I’m not a Republican. I’m a Democrat, but I’m a Democrat of what the party used to stand for, and that he’s going to go rogue to wherever he has to, that’s best for his members and his people.
但是，无论如何，如果我说是一个拥有多数白人，男性球迷，乐队的人，我会说 - 我的意思是，我们是在谈论对与错，还是我们在谈论赢得选举所需的内容？如果我们谈论您需要赢得选举所需的内容，我想您确实必须将橄榄树分支带出来，说，交易中的男性男子不会受到侮辱。而且我不一定认为他们已经过去了，但是我看着一个像我的朋友，来自团队的肖恩·奥布赖恩（Sean O’Brien），他在共和党大会上讲话。他会说，我不是共和党人。我是民主党人，但我是该党所代表的事物的民主党人，他将在他必须的任何地方流氓，这对他的成员和他的人民来说是最好的。
So when you see people like that saying that the Democratic Party isn’t working for them anymore, then there is something to listen to because that guy has a million people that he’s representing.
因此，当您看到这样的人说民主党不再为他们工作的人，那么有些事情要聆听，因为那个家伙有一百万的人代表。
And I think there’s room for everybody, you know what I mean? I think that the policies of the Trump administration, and its, frankly, just cruelty should, of anything, unite anybody that’s center-left and far progressive because the things we want at this point should just be freedom and kindness and civility, and treating people with dignity. If that shouldn’t unite the country that wants to do good things, then—but it’s a funny thing about the left. Even with all that going on, there’ll still be that division and bickering sometimes.
我认为每个人都有空间，你知道我的意思吗？我认为，特朗普政府的政策，坦率地说，这一切都应该团结起来左翼和进步的任何人，因为我们目前想要的事情应该只是自由，善良和文明，以及对待有尊严的人。如果那不应该团结想要做好事的国家，那就 - 但左派这是一件有趣的事情。即使发生了所有事情，有时仍然会有这种分裂和争吵。
Goldberg: Tell me the story from your perspective: There’s a very famous clip from a show. You have this colloquy, essentially, this discourse with a guy wearing a Trump shirt, a MAGA shirt.
戈德堡：从您的角度告诉我这个故事：节目中有一个非常著名的剪辑。从本质上讲，您有这个俗气的话语，与一个穿着特朗普衬衫，杂志衬衫的家伙的话语。
How do you make the decision—you’re onstage in front of several thousand people; you’re doing your very high-velocity show—how do you decide that you’re going to pause and you’re going to educate? I mean, I think that’s what is in your mind, like, I’m going to teach this guy about domestic clothing production in the middle of a punk show.
您如何做出决定 - 您在数千人面前登上舞台；您正在做自己的高速表演 - 您如何决定要暂停而要教育？我的意思是，我认为这就是您的想法，例如，我将在朋克表演中向这个家伙传授有关家庭服装制作的知识。
Casey: Sure. Well, so sometimes when someone’s trying to make a statement of being, just for example, in the front row with a MAGA shirt on, you’d say, They’re dying for attention right now. I’m not going to give them the attention they crave, so I might totally ignore them. But the one you are talking about, there was a blow-up of Trump’s head.
凯西：当然。好吧，有时候，当某人试图陈述存在时，例如，在前排穿着Maga衬衫，您会说，他们现在渴望引起关注。我不会给他们他们渴望的关注，所以我可能会完全忽略他们。但是您正在谈论的那个，特朗普的头部爆炸了。
Goldberg: This is in Florida, right?
戈德堡：这是在佛罗里达州，对吗？
Casey: Yeah, Florida. I’m going to say a guy, maybe, I’m just guessing, late-to-mid-60s and a kid in his 30s, and they both had MAGA shirts and gear, so it was clear—
凯西：是的，佛罗里达。我要说的是一个人，也许，我只是在猜想，60年代晚些时候，一个30多岁的孩子，他们俩都有Maga衬衫和装备，所以很明显 - 很明显 -
Goldberg: They’re trolling you.
戈德堡：他们正在拖钓你。
Casey: Yeah. So it was clear. But it taught me a big lesson though that night because we had this interaction where I made a bet with him.
凯西：是的。所以很明显。但是那天晚上，这教会了我一个很大的教训，因为我们有这种互动，我与他打赌。
Concert clip: Sir, I’d like to propose a friendly wager. You can’t lose this wager. Would you, in the name of dialogue and discourse—and I appreciate you being here—would you agree to a friendly wager? He says, “Sure.” That’s a good sport. Well, first of all, do you support American workers? Of course you do. Of course you do.
音乐会剪辑：先生，我想提出友好的下注。你不能失去这种赌注。您会以对话和话语的名义（我感谢您在这里）是否同意友好的下注？他说：“当然。”那是一项很好的运动。好吧，首先，您支持美国工人吗？当然，您会这样做。当然，您会这样做。
Okay, so and you support American businesses, obviously. Okay, so I don’t know if you guys are aware, because we don’t go around fucking bragging about it, but Dropkick Murphys always sells proudly made-in-America merchandise only.
好的，显然，您可以支持美国业务。好的，所以我不知道你们是否知道，因为我们不会四处吹牛，但是Dropkick Murphys总是只卖出自豪地卖出在美国商品。
Casey: I told them Dropkick Murphys merchandise is all made in America because I feel like, Hey, we put our money where our mouth is, you know? And I find that MAGA often doesn’t. And so I made a bet: I’ll give you a hundred dollars and the shirt if your shirt’s made in America, and if it isn’t, you just get the shirt.
凯西（Casey）：我告诉他们Dropkick Murphys商品在美国制造，因为我觉得，嘿，我们把钱放在嘴里，你知道吗？我发现Maga经常不会。因此，我下注：如果您的衬衫在美国制作，我会给您一百美元和衬衫，如果不是，您只会得到衬衫。
Concert clip: All right, Matt, can we get a little drumroll please? Sir, could you both turn backwards? Don’t worry. No one’s gonna. He just needs to check your tags on your shirt and your hat. Just need to see where they’re made. (Drumroll.) Nicaragua. It’s made in Nicaragua! Ohhh!
音乐会剪辑：好的，马特，我们能得到一点鼓吗？先生，你们俩都可以向后转动吗？不用担心。没有人会。他只需要在衬衫和帽子上检查您的标签即可。只需要看看它们的制作位置即可。（鼓声。）尼加拉瓜。它是在尼加拉瓜制造的！哦！
Casey: And I kept it respectful, and when he lost the bet, because the shirt was made in Nicaragua, he took it off and we gave them shirts, and they laughed. And I’m like, Oh wow, that doesn’t often go like that with MAGA. And I went down after and I said, Hey, thanks for being a good sport. And he said, Hey, I’ve been coming to see you guys for 20 years. I consider you family. And I don’t let politics come between me and my family.
凯西：我保持了尊重，当他输掉赌注时，因为这件衬衫是在尼加拉瓜制作的，他摘下了它，我们给了他们衬衫，他们笑了。而且我想，哦，哇，这并不常见于Maga。然后我倒下了，我说，嘿，感谢您的一项好运动。他说，嘿，我来见你们已有20年了。我认为你家人。而且我不让政治来到我和我的家人之间。
And I was like, Wow, what a lesson that guy just taught me. To not look at any person in a MAGA shirt and automatically think that they’re the worst of the worst of the worst. I still think that if you are willing to sport a shirt for a guy who is doing what he’s doing now, you certainly don’t have my love and devotion, but in my mind, oftentimes if I see someone in a MAGA shirt, I’m all but thinking in my head, He’s burning crosses. You know what I mean?
我当时想，哇，那个家伙刚教我的教训。不要看杂志衬衫的任何人，而是自动认为它们是最糟糕的最糟糕的人。我仍然认为，如果您愿意为一个正在做他现在正在做的事情的家伙穿衬衫，那么您当然没有我的爱和奉献，但是在我看来，如果我看到我穿着Maga衬衫的人，我几乎都在思考，他在我的头上，他在燃烧十字架。你知道我的意思？
And this guy, he was ready to have some civil discussion and laugh about it a little bit. And I have a few friends like that. I swear, sometimes I think they’ll just stay MAGA just because they don’t want to admit they were wrong.
而这个家伙，他准备进行一些民事讨论，并为此大笑。我有几个朋友。我发誓，有时候我认为他们只是因为不想承认自己错了而留下来。
Goldberg: It’s hard for a guy to just say, “I got played.”
戈德堡：一个人很难说：“我玩了。”
Casey: Right.
凯西：对。
Goldberg: Right. And that’s something that you’ve been arguing, is that this is fundamentally a grift. Is that fair?
戈德堡：对。这就是您一直在争论的事情，是从根本上讲这是一个grift。公平吗？
Casey: Yeah. And I don’t look at most people and say, Hey, you know—I don’t even know Donald Trump. You know what I mean? I don’t want to fall out with someone for life that I, especially that I knew my whole life, over this guy?
凯西：是的。而且我不看大多数人，说，嘿，你知道 - 我什至不认识唐纳德·特朗普。你知道我的意思？我不想和某人一生摔倒，尤其是我一生都知道这个家伙吗？
Goldberg: Have you lost friends?
戈德堡：你失去了朋友吗？
Casey: I’ve definitely lost peripheral friends, and my closer friends that have gone MAGA, we’ve done our best to avoid the subject, but we don’t really hang out. How do you hang out with someone when—but we can stay cordial, you know what I mean? But yeah, it’s gotten away with a lot of. Yeah. I mean, I’m lucky in my family at least; I don’t have that; everyone’s on the same page. I don’t have anyone throwing the turkey at me across the table at least, you know?
凯西：我肯定失去了外围朋友，而我已经走了杂志的更亲密的朋友，我们已经尽力避免了这个话题，但我们并没有真正闲逛。您如何与某人一起出去玩 - 但是我们可以保持亲切的状态，您知道我的意思吗？但是，是的，它有很多。是的。我的意思是，至少我对家人很幸运；我没有那个；每个人都在同一页面上。我没有人至少在桌子上把火鸡扔向我，你知道吗？
Goldberg: Right, right. Talk a little bit about the new album and the goal of the album. Obviously there are aesthetic goals. You’re trying to make great music, and you do. I’m admitting my bias here, but there’s some songs here that are very straight-ahead, that leave no room for doubt.
戈德堡：对，对。谈谈新专辑和专辑的目标。显然有美学目标。您正在尝试制作出色的音乐，并且您会做。我在这里承认自己的偏见，但是这里有一些很直截了当的歌曲，没有任何疑问的空间。
Casey: I mean, you write about what you’re passionate about, and I’m pretty passionate about what’s happening to the country that I’m a citizen of.
凯西（Casey）：我的意思是，您写下了自己的热情，我对我是公民的国家非常热衷。
[“Fiending for the Lies,” by Dropkick Murphys]
[“谎言的恶魔”，作者：Dropkick Murphys]
Casey: I just can’t see writing about something else. I feel like it’d be one thing if we wrote 13 songs about the situation; people might be like, All right, we get it. But that’s why it’s authentic for us, because we do live our lives, right? This song’s about our children. This song’s about a friend from another band, but there’s also these songs about the rage we feel inside right now. So if we didn’t write about that right now, people would be like, What’s wrong with Dropkick Murphys? They’re trying to stuff it down and not deal with it. And it’s just not who we are.
凯西：我只是看不到其他东西。如果我们写了13首有关情况的歌曲，我觉得这是一回事。人们可能会说，好吧，我们明白了。但这就是为什么它对我们真实的原因，因为我们过着生活，对吗？这首歌是关于我们的孩子的。这首歌是关于另一个乐队的朋友，但还有这些歌曲，讲述了我们现在在里面感到愤怒。因此，如果我们现在不写这句话，人们会想，Dropkick Murphys怎么了？他们正在尝试将其塞满而不是处理。这不是我们是谁。
Goldberg: I guess the final question is, do you think that the fever is just going to break? You see anything that makes you think, Okay, they’re going to understand that this is a grift. They’re gonna understand that class issues are more important than gender issues and race issues and so on?
戈德堡：我想最后一个问题是，您认为发烧会破裂吗？您会看到任何使您想到的东西，好吧，他们将了解这是一个肮脏的事情。他们会理解班级问题比性别问题和种族问题更重要吗？
Casey: I always say I’m never one to root against America, so I don’t want, say, I hope it gets so bad that they see it. But I think that’s what it might take.
凯西：我总是说我从来都不是扎根于美国，所以我不想说，我希望它变得如此糟糕，以至于他们看到了它。但是我认为这可能就是这样。
Goldberg: Ken Casey, Dropkick Murphys, thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate it.
戈德堡：肯·凯西（Ken Casey），Dropkick Murphys，非常感谢您加入我们。我很感激。
Casey: Great to be here. Thank you.
凯西：很高兴来到这里。谢谢。
[Music]
[音乐]
Rosin: Thank you to Jeff Goldberg for bringing us this conversation. Dropkick Murphy’s new album, “For The People” is out tomorrow, July 4.
松果：感谢杰夫·戈德堡（Jeff Goldberg）为我们带来了这次对话。Dropkick Murphy的新专辑“ For The People”将于7月4日发行。
This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Rosie Hughes. It was edited by Claudine Ebeid. We had engineering support from Rob Smierciak and fact-checking by Álex Maroño Porto. Claudine Ebeid is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
这一集由罗西·休斯（Rosie Hughes）制作。它由Claudine Ebeid编辑。我们得到了Rob Smierciak的工程支持，并获得了ÁlexMaroñoPorto的事实检查。Claudine Ebeid是Atlantic Audio的执行制片人，Andrea Valdez是我们的执行编辑。
Listeners, if you like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic at TheAtlantic.com/listener.
听众，如果您喜欢大西洋广播中听到的信息，则可以在您订阅theatlantic.com/listener订阅大西洋时支持我们的作品和所有大西洋记者的作品。
I’m Hanna Rosin. Talk to you next week.
我是Hanna Rosin。下周与您交谈。
