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The Atlantic’s David Frum opens this episode of The David Frum Show with a statement about Trump’s Iran strikes. The strikes fulfilled commitments of past presidents, who have long maintained that the U.S. would not allow an Iranian nuclear bomb. David also makes the point that Trump, who has already abused peacetime powers, is now a wartime president, a role that will allow him to wield even larger powers—and do even greater damage.
大西洋的戴维·弗鲁姆（David Frum）开幕了大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）的演出，并发表了有关特朗普伊朗罢工的陈述。罢工履行了过去总统的承诺，他们长期以来一直坚持认为美国将不允许伊朗核弹。戴维还指出，已经滥用和平时期权力的特朗普现在是战时总统，这将使他能够发挥更大的力量，并造成更大的伤害。
Then David is joined by the author and editor Tina Brown for a conversation about the disorienting effects of extreme wealth. They discuss how billionaires often become detached from reality, how philanthropy is used to consolidate image and influence, and how Brown’s personal experience with Donald Trump shaped her understanding of his ego and evolution.
然后，戴维（David）与作者兼编辑蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown）一起谈论了极限财富的迷失方面。他们讨论了亿万富翁如何经常脱离现实，如何使用慈善事业来巩固形象和影响，以及布朗与唐纳德·特朗普的个人经历如何塑造她对他的自我和进化的理解。
The following is a transcript of the episode:
以下是该集的成绩单：
David Frum: Hello, and welcome back to The David Frum Show, in an America that suddenly finds itself at war in the Middle East under the leadership of President Trump. My guest today is Tina Brown, the former editor of Tatler, Vanity Fair, and The New Yorker, author of the Fresh Hell Substack.
大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）：您好，欢迎回到大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）的秀，在一个在特朗普总统的领导下突然发现自己在中东战争的美国。我今天的客人是蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown），他是塔特勒（Tatler），名利场（Vanity Fair）的前编辑，也是《新地狱替补》（The Fresh Hell seltack）的《纽约客》（New Yorker）。
I recorded this dialogue with Tina Brown before the outbreak of hostilities. We’re going to continue with it because I think it says a lot of important things by Tina about the political culture of the United States today. But I am recording on the Monday morning after the strikes. I’m in a different location, obviously, as you’ll see from the location I was in when I recorded the dialogue with Tina.
在敌对行动爆发之前，我与蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown）录制了这种对话。我们将继续下去，因为我认为蒂娜（Tina）关于当今美国政治文化的许多重要事情。但是我在罢工后的星期一早上录制。显然，我在与蒂娜（Tina）对话时所处的位置中看到的那样。
And of course, we’re in a different world, a world in which the United States has struck Iran with air power and which calls for some new thinking and some new approaches.
当然，我们在一个不同的世界中，在这个世界中，美国用空中力量袭击了伊朗，并要求采取一些新的思维和一些新的方法。
For many Americans, nothing much has changed politically. They opposed Donald Trump before the war, and they oppose Donald Trump now that he’s led the country into a war. For those of us on the center right or on the Never Trump side, things are a little bit more complicated. Among the reasons that me and people like me opposed Donald Trump was not just—along with our many, many coalition partners spreading across the American spectrum—his disdain for democracy, his attempt to overthrow the 2020 election, his authoritarianism, his corruption. We also had very particular political concerns.
对于许多美国人来说，政治上没有什么改变。他们在战前反对唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump），现在他带领唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）带领该国陷入战争。对于我们的中心右或从未有过的特朗普方面的人来说，事情变得更加复杂。在我和像我这样的人反对唐纳德·特朗普的原因之一中，他不仅与我们的许多联盟合作伙伴一起传播在美国范围内 - 他对民主的不屑一顾，他企图推翻2020年大选，他的威权主义，腐败。我们也有非常特别的政治问题。
The thing that led me and people like me to the political right in the first place was our belief in American global leadership—leadership of willing partners and allies, leadership based on respect, leadership based on mutual benefit, leadership based on commerce and trade. Donald Trump rejected all of those ideas. His vision is one of an America isolated and alone, an America that dominates, an America that may be feared but is not respected and certainly is not liked or trusted, because he’s not liked or trusted. And through his first term and the opening months of the second, that logic prevailed.
首先，让我和像我这样的人掌握了政治权利的是我们对美国全球领导力的信念 - 对愿意的伙伴和盟友的领导，基于尊重的领导，基于互惠互利的领导，基于商业和贸易的领导才能。唐纳德·特朗普拒绝了所有这些想法。他的愿景是一个孤立和孤独的美国之一，一个统治的美国，一个可能被恐惧但又不受尊重的美国，肯定不受欢迎或不信任，因为他不喜欢或信任。在他的第一个学期和第二个几个月中，该逻辑占了上风。
But by striking the Iranian nuclear program, in support of Israel at war in defense of itself, Donald Trump did something that is more or less in line with what a President McCain might have done or a President Romney might have done—the kind of action that, had it been done by a President McCain or a President Romney, me and people like me would’ve supported. And so we are in a kind of quandary today: A president whom we fear and reject, and whom we see as a threat to American democracy, has this one time done something in line with established Republican values, established conservative principles, established principles of American global leadership, rather than in defiance and rejection of them.
但是，通过制定伊朗核计划，为了捍卫以色列的辩护，唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）做了一些或多或少地与麦凯恩总统所做的事情或罗姆尼总统可能所做的事情相符 - 如果由麦凯恩总统或像我这样的罗姆尼总统，我和像我这样的人做出的一种行动。因此，我们今天处于一种困境中：我们担心和拒绝的总统，我们认为对美国民主的威胁，这一次与既定的共和党价值观，建立了保守的原则，建立了美国全球领导力的原则，而不是对他们的拒绝和拒绝。
So what do we do and how do we think about that? Do we forget that this president is unworthy and untrustworthy? Or do we discard our past principles about what America’s role in the world should be, and object to this latest act, which we would’ve supported had it been done by another president, reject it because it was done by a president we reject? So this is the dilemma. So let me just tell you—not to give advice to anybody—about how I think about this. I’ve written a little bit about this for The Atlantic, but I’m going to talk more about it today.
那么我们该怎么办，我们如何看待这件事？我们是否忘记了这位总统不值得和不信任？还是我们放弃了过去关于美国在世界上的作用的原则，并且反对这一最新行为，如果这是由另一位总统完成的，我们会支持这一行为，因为它是由我们拒绝的总统完成的，因为它是由我们拒绝的？所以这是困境。因此，让我告诉您 - 不是向任何人提供建议 - 就我对此的看法。我已经为大西洋写了一些有关此的文章，但我今天要谈论更多。
Donald Trump remains a dangerous and unacceptable leader of the United States, an enemy of democracy and an enemy of America’s role in the world, and he’s now leading the country into war. Now, we hope that this war will be brief and decisive. We hope that the strike on the Iranian facilities will be one and done, the facilities will be destroyed, the nuclear program will be terminated (as every president since Bill Clinton has wanted to terminate the Iranian nuclear program), it will be done in a decisive and relatively cost-free way, and that things will now return to the usual programming.
唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）仍然是美国的危险和不可接受的领导人，民主的敌人，也是美国在世界上角色的敌人，现在他正在带领该国发动战争。现在，我们希望这场战争将是简短和决定性的。我们希望对伊朗设施的罢工将是一个并且已经完成，设施将被摧毁，核计划将被终止（因为比尔·克林顿（Bill Clinton）希望终止伊朗核计划以来，每位总统都将以决定性且相对无成本的方式来完成，并且现在将返回通常的编程。
But we have to be ready for the possibility that these hopes do not come to pass. That, in fact, Donald Trump has opened his way into a new chapter in American history, that the Iranians will retaliate, that the situation will become more and more unsettled—the Iranians will retaliate not only with conventional military means, or not only with missiles and barrages, but also by a campaign of global terrorism against American interests and other interests in the United States and around the world, and that we are at the beginning of something, not the end of something. I don’t predict that, but the mind has to be prepared for it. That is a real possibility. Donald Trump may have converted himself into a wartime president for a long time to come.
但是，我们必须准备好这些希望不会实现的可能性。实际上，唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）已向美国历史上的一个新篇章开放，即伊朗人将进行报复，这种情况将变得越来越不安，伊朗人不仅会以常规军事手段进行报复，还是要以导弹和武器的方式进行报复，不仅是对全球恐怖主义的运动，而且还要通过对美国和世界各地的某些事物以及我们在世界各地的某些事物进行报复。我不预测这一点，但是必须为此做好准备。这是一个真正的可能性。唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）可能已经将自己转变为战时总统很长一段时间。
And if the powers that Donald Trump has asserted in peacetime were unprecedented, en large, think of what he will do during war. In peacetime, he said that people illegally present in the United States, or those who looked like they might be illegally present, they had no due-process rights. People around him have been itching to say that American citizens and American permanent residents don’t have due-process rights either. And in wartime they can maybe make that stick. They have attempted to suppress the free-speech rights of people they don’t like, and of institutions they don’t like, and of universities they don’t like.
而且，如果唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）在和平时期所主张的权力是前所未有的，那么大而言，想想他在战争期间将要做什么。他说，在和平时期，人们在美国非法出席，或者那些看起来像非法存在的人，他们没有正当过程的权利。他周围的人一直在渴望，说美国公民和美国永久居民也没有正当过程的权利。在战时，他们可以制作那个棍子。他们试图抑制自己不喜欢的人的自由语音权利，以及他们不喜欢的机构以及他们不喜欢的大学的自由言论权。
Well, in wartime, they may have more ambition against free-speech-like rights of people they don’t like. We’ve seen Donald Trump use bits and pieces of past presidential emergency powers to create a whole tariff system that raises billions of dollars of revenue without Congress, as not an emergency measure but as a permanent measure of presidential one-man revenue without reference to Congress. And in wartime, those powers get bigger still. And again, he’ll have larger powers to raise revenue without Congress.
好吧，在战时，他们可能对自己不喜欢的人的自由语音般的权利有更多的野心。我们已经看到，唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）使用过去的总统紧急权力来创建一个整个关税制度，该系统在没有国会的情况下筹集了数十亿美元的收入，不是紧急措施，而是一种永久衡量总统单人收入的措施，而无需参考国会。在战时，这些力量变得更大。再说一次，他将拥有更大的权力，可以在没有国会的情况下提高收入。
So a presidency that was dangerous before becomes more dangerous still. But the war that he’s begun was necessary, and the things he did were the things that a normal president would’ve done. So we have to find ways to keep true to both our principles about American leadership—and when I say “we,” I mean people who think like me and me, and this is advice also to myself—without abating one bit our wariness of the kind of president Donald Trump is.
因此，以前很危险的总统仍然变得更加危险。但是他开始的战争是必要的，而他所做的事情是普通总统会做的事情。因此，我们必须找到遵守美国领导力的两种原则的方法，当我说“我们”时，我的意思是像我和我一样思考的人，这也对我自己也是建议，这一点不减弱我们对唐纳德·特朗普总统的谨慎行为。
Donald Trump always wants personal thanks. He’s always demanding that people say “thank you” to him. And for those of us who support the action against the Iranian nuclear facilities, he wants thanks from us: Thank you, President Trump. So let me just give him what he wants for a second. Thank you, President Trump, for once in your misbegotten presidency doing a right thing, even if you did it in a high-handed and irresponsible way.
唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）总是要感谢您。他总是要求人们对他说“谢谢”。对于那些支持反对伊朗核设施的行动的人，他要感谢我们：谢谢特朗普总统。因此，让我给他一秒钟的他想要的东西。谢谢特朗普总统，即使您以高手和不负责任的方式做了一件正确的总统职位。
I mean, the idea that you would brief the Republican leaders of House and Senate and not the Democratic leaders of House and Senate, as any president before you he would’ve done, that’s just oafish and churlish and rude and insulting and gratuitous because the suggestion here is: We can’t trust Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer to keep a secret that we trust Mike Johnson and John Thune to keep. Really? Really? That’s what you want to say as you lead a united country into a conflict, where you’re going to be coming back maybe for supplemental appropriations, and where the work is done by Americans of all points of view, all races, all backgrounds. It’s kind of a small point, but the fact that the secretary of defense couldn’t remember that there was a woman who was piloting one of the B-2s, and referred only to “our boys.” What’s the need for that kind of gratuitous insult?
我的意思是，您将介绍众议院和参议院的共和党领导人，而不是众议院和参议院的民主党领导人，就像您之前的任何总统一样，这只是Oafish，chur的，粗鲁，粗鲁，粗鲁，无礼和免费的，因为这里的建议是：我们不能信任Hakeem jeffries和Chuck Schumer，以至于我们可以保留一个秘密我们信任Mike Johnson和John thune，以保持迈克·约翰·托恩（Mike Johnson）的保留。真的吗？真的吗？这就是您要说的是，当您带领一个统一的国家陷入冲突时，您将回来可能是为了补充拨款，而在所有观点，所有种族，所有背景的美国人都完成了工作。这是一个很小的观点，但是国防部长不记得有一个女人正在驾驶其中一个B-2，而仅被称为“我们的男孩”这一事实。这种无用的侮辱需要什么？
But we don’t want to lose sight of either of the truths that it is necessary to shut down the Iranian nuclear program and that American leadership is welcome, and the truth that the president exercising this leadership is a dangerous figure. We’ll have to be able to keep track of both, and that’s complicated. But politics is sometimes complicated. And that’s going to be a challenge for me because, like all of us, I get into the flow of discussion. I can get heated. I can overstate things. I can say things one way too much or one way too little the other way.
但是，我们不想忽视任何一个事实，即有必要关闭伊朗核计划，并欢迎美国领导人，而行使这一领导的总统是一个危险的人物。我们必须能够跟踪两者，这很复杂。但是政治有时很复杂。这对我来说将是一个挑战，因为像我们所有人一样，我进入了讨论的流程。我可以加热。我可以夸大事情。我可以用另一种方式说出某种方式或一种方式。
We are in a situation of conflict. The conflict was necessary. The leadership is unreliable, untrustworthy, and dangerous. And there is now an ever-present and probably growing danger that the leadership of the United States will use this conflict to expand their powers to do illegitimate things in illegitimate ways. And as much as we mistrusted them before, we must mistrust them even more now.
我们处于冲突状态。冲突是必要的。领导不可靠，不信任和危险。现在，美国领导人将利用这种冲突来扩大他们的权力，以私人的方式进行非法的事情，这是一个永远存在的危险。尽管我们以前不信任他们，但我们现在必须更加不信任它们。
How do you support all of this out? I often cite a parable—or a fairy story—that was written by the American writer James Thurber. And because I don’t want to trust my memory as to how exactly James Thurber said it, I printed it out this morning. It’s quite short, so I’m going to read it. And I think it’s a lesson that applies to a lot of us in our politics. It’s the story of a bear who could take it or leave it alone, and here’s how it goes. It’s just a couple of paragraphs:
您如何支持所有这些？我经常引用一个由美国作家詹姆斯·瑟伯（James Thurber）撰写的寓言或一个童话故事。而且由于我不想相信詹姆斯·瑟伯（James Thurber）的确切记忆，所以今天早上我将其打印出来。它很短，所以我要读它。我认为这是我们许多政治中许多人的课程。这是一个熊的故事，他可以拿走它或不理会它，这就是它的发展。只是几段：
In the woods of the Far West there once lived a brown bear who could take it or let it alone. He would go into a bar where they sold mead, a fermented drink made of honey, and he would have just two drinks. Then he would put some money on the bar and say, ‘See what the bears in the back room will have,’ and he would go home. But finally he took to drinking by himself most of the day. He would reel home at night, kick over the umbrella stand, knock down the bridge lamps, and ram his elbows through the windows. Then he would collapse on the floor and lie there until he went to sleep. His wife was greatly distressed and his children were very frightened.
在遥远的西部树林里，那里曾经住过一只棕熊，可以拿走它或让它一个人。他会进入一家酒吧，在那里他们出售了米德（Mead），这是用蜂蜜制成的发酵饮料，他只有两杯饮料。然后他会在酒吧里放一些钱，然后说：“看看后室中的熊会有什么”，他会回家。但是最终，他大部分时间都在自己喝酒。他会在晚上卷回家，踢过雨伞架，撞倒桥梁，然后用肘部伸出窗户。然后，他会倒在地板上，躺在那里，直到他入睡。他的妻子非常痛苦，他的孩子们非常害怕。
At length the bear saw the error of his ways and began to reform. In the end he became a famous teetotaler and a persistent temperance lecturer. He would tell everybody that came to his house about the awful effects of drink, and he would boast about how strong and well he had become since he gave up touching the stuff. To demonstrate this, he would stand on his head and on his hands and he would turn cartwheels in the house, kicking over the umbrella stand, knocking down the bridge lamps, and ramming his elbows through the windows. Then he would lie down on the floor, tired by his healthful exercise, and go to sleep. His wife was greatly distressed and his children were very frightened.
熊最终看到了他的方式错误并开始改革。最后，他成为了著名的teetotaler和持续的节制讲师。他会告诉所有来到他家的人都会了解饮料的可怕影响，他会夸耀自从他放弃触摸这些东西以来，他变得多么坚强。为了证明这一点，他会站在头上和手上，他会在房子里转动手车，踢过伞架，撞倒桥梁，然后用窗户撞击肘部。然后，他会躺在地板上，因为他的健康锻炼而疲倦，然后睡觉。他的妻子非常痛苦，他的孩子们非常害怕。
Moral: You might as well fall flat on your face as lean over too far backward.
道德：您也可能平坦地落在脸上，因为向后倾斜太远。
So that’s the moral we all face. We don’t want to fall flat on our face, and we don’t want to lean over too far backwards. We don’t want to let our mistrust of Trump—if those of you who are on the Never Trump and conservative side, on the American leadership side, on the belief in free trade and American military power and the leadership of global alliances—you don’t want to let your mistrust of Donald Trump lead you to reject this very necessary shutdown of the Iranian nuclear program, a program that was aimed at extinguishing the state of Israel and committing Act II of the attempted genocide of the Jews that Hitler tried in the 1940s.
这就是我们所有人都面临的道德。我们不想落在脸上，也不想向后倾斜太远。我们不想让我们对特朗普的不信任 - 如果您在美国领导层，对自由贸易和美国军事力量的信念以及全球联盟的领导以及唐纳德·特朗普的不信任的信念，您对唐纳德·特朗普的不信任的信念使您拒绝这一非常必要的伊朗核计划的拒绝，这是一项旨在使以色列人的行为拒绝，那是拒绝这一计划，就不想让您拒绝这一计划，并拒绝了以色列的努力，这是一项努力，您不希望您的不信任。希特勒在1940年代尝试过。
You don’t want to be led there, but neither do you want to be led by your “thank you, President Trump” attitude to overlooking how dangerous the situation now is, how he will abuse wartime powers in a way that will amplify and extend the abuse of the powers that he’s been doing, and that he will try to create an atmosphere in this country of hostility to rights and due process and free speech even worse than that which just prevailed in the first half of this year, in the beginning of his presidency. We face two dangers, and we have to confront both. It’s not going be too easy. But I’m now going to forget—I don’t want to jumble this quote—but as somebody wise once said, it’s not an easy duty being an American. It just got a little bit harder after Donald Trump’s actions in Iran. So I will now open our dialogue with Tina Brown.
您不想被带到那里，但是您也不想以“感谢特朗普总统”的态度领导，以忽视现在的危险，他将如何以一种将滥用和扩展自己所做的权力的滥用和扩大自己的权力的方式，并且他会试图在这个国家中遭受敌意和自由的态度，而这是他在这一过程中的敌意和自由态度的差异，而这是他在这个国家中的境地，而这是他在这一范围内的预期，而这一过程却在这一范围内越来越糟糕。我们面临两个危险，我们必须面对这两者。这不会太容易。但是我现在会忘记 - 我不想打扰这句话 - 但是正如某人曾经说过的那样，美国人对美国人来说并不容易。唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）在伊朗的行动之后，情况有些困难。因此，我现在将与蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown）进行对话。
I want to make—I have two other bits of housekeeping to take up. As I said, I’m recording in the conference room of the Royal Hotel in Picton, Ontario. Thank you to the Royal Hotel for their hospitality. The interview was conducted in my usual recording studio at home in Washington, D.C.
我想做 - 我还有另外两个家政工作要拿。正如我所说，我正在安大略省皮克顿皇家酒店的会议室录制。感谢皇家酒店的热情款待。这次采访是在我通常在华盛顿特区的家庭录音室进行的。
I also want to mention two things leftover from last week’s podcast with Karim Sadjadpour, when we talked about Iran and Iran’s culture. I referenced Karim’s book, but I gracelessly omitted to mention his title. For those of you who’d like to understand better what is going on inside Iran, Karim’s book is Reading Khamenei, named for the supreme leader of Iran, and it is the most insightful thing I’ve ever read about the political ideology, the religious beliefs of the supreme leader of Iran. And that may be a useful thing. Take a look at now: Reading Khamenei, by Karim Sadjadpour.
当我们谈论伊朗和伊朗的文化时，我还想提及上周与卡里姆·萨迪普尔（Karim Sadjadpour）的播客中剩下的两件事。我引用了Karim的书，但我无情地提及他的头衔。对于那些想更好地理解伊朗内部发生的事情的人来说，卡里姆的书是雷丁（Karim）以伊朗最高领导人的名字命名的，这是我读过的关于政治意识形态，伊朗最高领导人的宗教信仰的最有见地的事情。这可能是有用的。现在看一下：读Karim Sadjadpour的Khamenei。
And I also want to correct a mistake I made in last week’s podcast, where I referenced chess as a Persian invention. So I’m corrected by those who know this history better than I do, that chess originated in India and then spread westward via Persia to the Arab world and from there on onto Europe, all in the Middle Ages. So it’s an Indian invention spread by the Persians, not a Persian invention. And I thank those who corrected me on that.
而且我也想纠正我在上周播客中犯的一个错误，在那里我将国际象棋称为波斯发明。因此，我对那些比我更了解这一历史的人纠正了，象棋起源于印度，然后通过波斯向西传播到阿拉伯世界，并从那里进入欧洲，全都在中世纪。因此，这是印度发明的波斯人，而不是波斯发明。我感谢那些纠正我的人。
We are in for some difficult times. I’m hoping you’ll find this conversation with Tina Brown a kind of diversion and tonic in these difficult times. There will be more difficult things to talk about on future episodes of The David Frum Show.
我们在一些艰难时期。我希望您能在这些困难时期找到与蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown）的对话。大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）秀的未来情节将会更加困难。
But now my dialogue with Tina Brown, recorded before the strikes on Iran by President Trump.
但是现在，我与蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown）的对话在特朗普总统对伊朗的罢工之前记录。
[Music]
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Frum: What a pleasure to be joined today by Tina Brown, who has led one of the most storied careers in journalism on both sides of the Atlantic. Her talent was identified early and rapidly as an undergraduate at Oxford. She was given the job of reviving the moribund Tattler magazine and turning it into the prototype of the great glossy magazines we knew and loved in the 1980s and 1990s. From there, she resurrected the defunct title of Vanity Fair and made it into, again, the true American institution it has remained. She hauled The New Yorker into the modern age, adding—this is gonna be a little bit of a shock for those of you who remember the old magazine—she added photographs to The New Yorker, among many other innovations. That, at the time, was regarded as somewhere between blasphemy and heresy, but she survived it and made The New Yorker, brought it into the modern age.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：今天蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown）加入了真是一种荣幸，他领导了大西洋两岸新闻界最传奇的职业之一。她的才华在牛津大学很早就被确定为本科生。她获得了恢复垂死的纹身杂志的工作，并将其变成了我们在1980年代和1990年代所认识和喜爱的伟大光泽杂志的原型。从那里开始，她复活了虚荣博览会的已故标题，并再次成为了它保留的真正美国机构。她将纽约客拖到现代时代，并补充说，这对那些记得旧杂志的人来说会有些震惊 - 她在纽约客中添加了照片，以及许多其他创新。当时，那被认为是亵渎和异端之间的某个地方，但她幸存下来并使纽约人将其带入现代。
And then she invented Talk magazine, one of the great journalistic innovations of the early 2000s. From there, she created the Daily Beast website, which flourishes, and where I worked for her—a story that I’ll tell in a minute. She founded the Women in the World conference series; wrote six books, including the Vanity Fair Diaries, which I reviewed in The Atlantic; and now she is the author and editor of the Fresh Hell Substack with almost 40,000 subscribers, including my wife and my mother-in-law, both of whom swear by it. They swap it back and forth by email.
然后，她发明了Talk Magazine，这是2000年代初期的伟大新闻创新之一。从那里开始，她创建了每日野兽网站，该网站蓬勃发展，我为她工作的地方 - 我将在一分钟内讲述一个故事。她在世界会议系列中创立了女性；写了六本书，包括我在大西洋评论的《虚荣公平日记》。现在，她是近40,000名订户的作者和编辑，其中包括我的妻子和我的岳母，他们都向其中发誓。他们通过电子邮件来回交换它。
It is such a great pleasure to welcome you, Tina, and I have to begin by telling a story of the management secrets of Tina Brown. This is a story you have probably forgotten, but I remember vividly how I was hired. And there’s a story there that I think goes into the book Management Secrets of Tina Brown that I think the world needs to know.
很高兴欢迎您，蒂娜，我必须首先讲述蒂娜·布朗的管理秘密故事。这是您可能已经忘记的故事，但我生动地记得我是如何被雇用的。我认为那里有一个故事，我认为世界需要知道世界的书籍管理秘密。
So I had been running for three years a website called Frum Forum, and it had a lot of impact—one of our contributors went on to be vice president of the United States—but it wasn’t very financially stable, and it was becoming more and more at work. And I was reaching that kind of breakdown point. And just at the moment when I said, “I have to change my life,” I got an email, an invitation to lunch with the legendary Tina Brown. And at lunch, she offered me a job at Daily Beast / Newsweek, and she said, Name your price. So I went home and thought about this and decided to take the job. It offered an exit from an intolerable situation, and I thought about, sort of, what I thought my service was worth. I added a little premium to what I thought my service was worth, and I called back and said, I’m delighted to accept, and the figure I propose is X. And Tina, you then said, Would you consider Y? Y being $10,000 a year more than X.
因此，我已经运行了三年的一个名为FRUM论坛的网站，它产生了很大的影响 - 我们的贡献者之一继续担任美国副总裁 - 但它在财务上并不是很稳定，而且在工作中越来越多。我达到了那种崩溃点。就在我说“我必须改变生活”的那一刻，我收到了一封电子邮件，邀请了传奇的蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown）午餐。在午餐时，她在《每日野兽》 /《新闻周刊》上给了我一份工作，她说，命名您的价格。所以我回家考虑了这一点，决定去找工作。它提供了一个无法无法容忍的情况的退出，我想，有点我认为我的服务值得。我增加了一些我认为的服务价值的溢价，我回电说，我很高兴接受，我提出的数字是X。y比X多10,000美元。
Tina Brown: Oh God. (Laughs.)
蒂娜·布朗：哦，天哪。（笑。）
Frum: I was stunned. I was stunned. I was so floored by this. And I said, Sure. But what I did not understand was that by accepting Y instead of X, what I’d set myself up for was, at that point, anytime Tina Brown called me at 4 in the morning to say I need 2,000 words by 7 in the morning— (Laughs.)
弗鲁姆：我被惊呆了。我被惊呆了。我对此感到非常满意。我说，当然。但是我不明白的是，通过接受Y而不是X，我所准备的是，蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown）早上4点在蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown）在早上4点打电话给我，说我早上7点需要2,000个字 - （笑）。
Brown: (Laughs.) Of course, it was a complete ploy. I had your nuts in a jar, David.
布朗：（笑）当然，这是一个完整的策略。大卫，我把你的坚果放在罐子里。
Frum: (Laughs.) But it worked. And I recommended to people that you just top it up a little bit, and then you can ask for anything. And they will do it.
弗鲁姆：（笑），但是奏效了。我向人们推荐您将其放在一点点，然后您可以要求任何东西。他们会做的。
Tina, the question I wanted to ask you was prompted by an essay you wrote in your brilliant newsletter, where you talked about the secret of the plane. And it struck me—and maybe this was always true; maybe we only know about it because of social media—but so many of the leading figures in American business today, the billionaires at the top of so many institutions, seem to be clinically crazy. And you had a theory that explained what was going wrong with them.
蒂娜（Tina），我想问的问题是您在精彩的新闻通讯中写的一篇文章的提示，您在那里谈论了飞机的秘密。这让我感到震惊 - 也许这永远是真的。也许我们只因为社交媒体而知道这一点，但是当今美国业务中的许多主要人物，这么多机构的亿万富翁似乎在临床上疯狂。而且您有一个理论来解释他们出了什么问题。
Brown: Well, I believe, strongly, that it all starts with the private plane, and it goes from there, okay?
布朗：嗯，我相信，这一切都始于私人飞机，然后从那里延伸，好吗？
Frum: (Laughs.)
弗鲁姆：（笑）。
Brown: I mean, you have to have flown on a private plane to understand that and be kind of empathetic to it. I have actually flown on a couple of very wealthy friends’ private planes, and once you’ve experienced that buttery leather, that sinking into that seat, that running to the tarmac, like, No, it’s going to wait for you. There’s no such thing as not getting your plane. It waits for you. And it takes off when you are good and ready. And then the steward comes around and gives you what he knows you like, and it goes on like this until you land, sleepily, not even wearing a seatbelt half the time. You land at some gorgeous place. Out of it, you step into a sort of beast of a motorcade kind of car and get whisked to the boat or wherever it is that you are going.
布朗：我的意思是，您必须在私人飞机上飞行才能理解这一点，并有点同情它。实际上，我已经乘坐几个非常富有的朋友的私人飞机飞行了，一旦您经历了那种黄油皮革，那就沉入那个座位，那就跑到停机坪上，例如，不，它将等待您。没有拿起飞机的东西。它在等你。当您做好并准备好时，它起飞了。然后，管家走来走去，给你他知道的东西，它一直这样，直到你昏昏欲睡，甚至没有系好安全带的时间。你降落在一个美丽的地方。从中，您进入了一种汽车的一种野兽，然后驶入船上，或者您要去的任何地方。
These experiences sort of change you for life, and you think, There is no one that I wouldn’t bribe, betray, sleep with to be freed from the armpit of mass transit. I mean, this is the thing. So once they’ve experienced this, they can never go back. And it gets more and more important to them. I mean, their families all want to be on it. They want to take their friends to the guest villas on it. It sort of starts to dominate the life.
这些经历会改变您的生活，您认为，没有人不会贿赂，背叛，睡觉，无法摆脱大众运输的腋窝。我的意思是，这就是事情。因此，一旦他们经历了这一点，他们就永远无法回去。它对他们越来越重要。我的意思是，他们的家人都想参加。他们想带他们的朋友到上面的客座别墅。它开始统治生活。
So this, of course, makes corporate executives, for a start—that is always a major part of the negotiation in their raises. So whatever bonus they get, the major thing they have to have is, And I also get to have the private plane, not just a couple of times a year to go to a conference but whenever I want this private plane, with whoever I want on this private plane, and also that I can use it during my vacations. And it goes on and on and on. So finally, this private plane is dominating everything.
因此，当然，这使公司高管开始了，这始终是加薪中谈判的主要部分。因此，无论他们得到什么好处，他们必须拥有的主要工作就是，我也可以拥有私人飞机，不仅是每年几次去一次会议，而且只要我想要这架私人飞机，无论我想要这架私人飞机上的人，而且我也可以在假期期间使用它。而且它不断地。因此，最后，这架私人飞机主导了一切。
A major [mergers and acquisitions] negotiator said to me that one of the things that happens in mergers is the thing that will allow—you know, there’s two CEOs. One of them has to go. It’s easy to get rid of the one who wants to go if you allow them to deal with, quote, “the social issues,” it’s known as. And the social issues is: You get the plane whenever you like. You can step down. You won’t be CEO, but you get use of the plane. So that, I think, is one of the beginnings of it all.
一个主要的[合并和收购]谈判者对我说，合并中发生的一件事就是允许的事情 - 您知道，有两名首席执行官。其中之一必须走。如果您允许他们打交道，就很容易摆脱想要去的人，引用“社会问题”，这被称为“社会问题”。社会问题是：您随时随地乘飞机。你可以下台。您不会担任首席执行官，但您可以使用飞机。因此，我认为这就是这一切的开始之一。
And then of course, with presidents—ex-presidents—the first thing they have to think about is, when you had Air Force One, I mean, that’s the ultimate private plane. So they start thinking about six months before they go, Who’s gonna fly me private? I mean, and actually, I would argue that the people who made the cut on Obama’s, you know, ill-fated 60th birthday party, when he suddenly found he had to cut the list, it’s worth looking at that list and seeing how many of them could provide the Obamas with wheels—wings, rather—because that has become a major factor in the Obamas’ life. Obama won’t even kind of cross the road without a private plane at this point. It just takes over.
当然，当然，与总统（主席） - 他们要考虑的第一件事是，当您拥有空军一时，我的意思是，那是终极的私人飞机。因此，他们开始在走前大约六个月开始思考，谁会把我私有化？我的意思是，实际上，我要说的是，在奥巴马的60岁生日派对上进行了削减的人，当他突然发现他必须删除名单时，值得一看的是，看到其中有多少人可以为奥巴马提供车轮（而不是奥巴马人）为奥巴马斯一生中的主要因素提供了翅膀。目前，奥巴马甚至没有私人飞机都不会越过道路。它只是接管了。
Frum: I’m not going to use names, because it seems invidious. Also, there’s some litigation risk. But we have seen this, if you follow social-media platforms, happening in real time, where people start off being the usual kind of CEO with CEO attitudes, the usual kind of rich man with rich man attitudes. And then—maybe it was COVID, maybe something like that—between 2020 and 2025, a lot of people who didn’t seem especially crazy before have descended into paranoid madness.
弗鲁姆：我不会使用名字，因为这似乎是令人震惊的。另外，还有一些诉讼风险。但是我们已经看到了这一点，如果您遵循实时发生的社交媒体平台，人们开始成为首席执行官态度的通常的首席执行官，这是通常的有钱人态度的有钱人。然后 - 也许是在2020年和2025年之间，也许是类似的东西，很多人以前似乎并不特别疯狂。
And one of the things I was really struck by—you had this moving recent review, evocation, of your friend Barry Diller’s book, and he seems to have been immune to this disease. We can name him as one of the people who’s, like, on the other side of this. There’s something about him that he seemed to remain levelheaded and morally centered at a time when so many people in his class and category have gone off the rails. Is there some secret there we can learn about why billionaires go crazy?
我真的很震惊的一件事 - 您对您的朋友巴里·迪勒（Barry Diller）的书进行了最近的评论，即唤起，他似乎对这种疾病免疫。我们可以将他命名为另一侧的人之一。关于他的事情，他似乎在班级和类别中有很多人脱离轨道的时候似乎保持着平坦的头脑并以道德为中心。我们是否可以了解为什么亿万富翁发疯？
Brown: Well, I mean, I think in Barry’s case, first of all, he has a very strong, sort of ironic sense of humor. Secondly, I think he’s always felt something of an outsider, because as we know, as he’s now revealed to the world—everyone knew before, but now he’s revealed it personally—that he was gay. And that was not something he’d come out about but kind of changed, I think, his outlook a bit to the world, and the sense that he always felt a little bit on the outside, so that he never quite became as complacent as people do when they’re superrich. And I think, thirdly, because he’s always done the work. He loves the work itself.
布朗：嗯，我的意思是，我认为在巴里的情况下，首先，他有一种非常强烈的讽刺性幽默感。其次，我认为他总是感觉到局外人，因为正如我们所知，正如他现在向世界透露的那样 - 以前每个人都知道，但现在他亲自透露了这一点 - 他是同性恋。我认为，这并不是他想到的，而是改变了他对世界的看法，而且他总是在外面感到有些感觉，因此他从来没有像人们在超级瑞典时那样变得像人们那样自满。我认为，第三，因为他总是完成工作。他喜欢作品本身。
I think that most of these kind of high-flying billionaires, as soon as they can kind of extricate themselves from the actual work—the sort of nitty-gritty, grungy process of making a buck, as it were—and that’s when they really start to lose it. Barry’s always liked the actual work of making films, making deals. He actually likes the work. I think it keeps him grounded. That is my theory. I think, obviously, we saw someone like a Warren Buffet. He never lost his sense of sanity.
我认为，大多数此类高飞的亿万富翁，一旦他们可以摆脱实际的工作，即赚钱的那种小巧，笨拙的过程，那就是他们真正开始失去它的时候。巴里一直喜欢制作电影，交易的实际工作。他实际上喜欢这项工作。我认为这使他扎根。那是我的理论。我认为，显然，我们看到了像沃伦自助餐一样的人。他从未失去理智的感觉。
I think what’s really made them all crazy recently is the numbers, the size of these digital fortunes. There was a huge amount of, I think, wealth envy. Always—there’s always been wealth envy. I think, actually, journalists are particularly afflicted by wealth envy because they spend so much time in the company of and reporting on people with so much more money than they have. Now, of course, journalists are now basically walking around with tin cups, seeing if they can get a few bucks here and there, so they feel, particularly, rage at how much better off everybody is.
我认为最近真正使他们疯狂的是这些数字命运的数字，大小。我认为，有很多财富嫉妒。总是 - 总是有财富嫉妒。我认为，实际上，记者特别受到财富嫉妒的困扰，因为他们在公司的陪伴下花费了很多时间，并报告了比他们多得多的人。现在，当然，新闻工作者现在基本上是在锡杯杯中走来走去，看看他们是否可以在这里和那里赚几美元，所以他们尤其是对每个人的好转更好。
But I think with, say, bankers, for instance—they always had, you know, massive amounts of money. Earlier in the century, there were people with $1 billion and people with $40-million-a-year bonuses and so on. But these digital fortunes, of the likes of Musk and Bezos and Zuckerberg and all of them, are in such a different level. They make everybody feel impoverished. So now they’re all completely obsessed. I mean, $1 billion is no longer a sort of an attainment. It’s got to be double-digit billions to feel that you are remotely in that class with those people.
但是我认为，例如，例如银行家 - 他们总是拥有大量的钱。在本世纪初，有10亿美元的人和拥有每年4000万美元的奖金的人，依此类推。但是，这些数字命运，例如马斯克和贝佐斯和扎克伯格等所有这些命运，都处于不同的水平。他们让每个人都感到贫穷。所以现在他们都完全痴迷了。我的意思是，10亿美元不再是一种成就。要让您与这些人一起参加那堂课，这一定是两位数的数十亿美元。
Frum: Well, I have a thought to cheer up the journalists, because one of the things we have learned from this age of social media is: When people have tired, wearied of the work that Barry Diller is doing—when they’ve made unimaginable amounts of money; when they are truly permanently, generationally rich; when they’re so rich that their great-grandchildren will be still among the richest people in America—when they get there and can do anything, what do they want to do? They want a shitpost on Twitter. (Laughs.) That’s what they want to do. And if you’re a journalist, wait a minute—this angry billionaire who has 175,000 followers, he looks at your 525,000 followers and says, That guy, he’s the problem.
弗鲁姆：好吧，我有一个想法使记者振作起来，因为我们从这个社交媒体时代中学到的一件事是：当人们疲倦，厌倦了巴里·迪勒（Barry Diller）所做的工作时 - 当他们赚了不可思议的钱时；当他们真正永久地，世代富裕时；当他们如此富有，以至于他们的曾孙仍将仍然是美国最富有的人 - 当他们到达那里并可以做任何事情时，他们想做什么？他们想要Twitter上的垃圾杆。（笑）这就是他们想做的。而且，如果您是一名记者，请等待一分钟 - 这位有175,000名追随者的愤怒的亿万富翁，他看着您的525,000名追随者，并说那个家伙，他就是问题所在。
And it was all symbolized by Elon Musk’s blue-check-mark revolution, that he destroyed Twitter because he was so mad that people who were correspondents for The New York Times or Washington Post had blue check marks, and his billionaire friends who were check-posting away to their 12,000 neo-Nazi followers didn’t have blue check marks, and he wrecked Twitter, wasted $40-plus billion all to make a revolution of the blue check marks.
And it was all symbolized by Elon Musk’s blue-check-mark revolution, that he destroyed Twitter because he was so mad that people who were correspondents for The New York Times or Washington Post had blue check marks, and his billionaire friends who were check-posting away to their 12,000 neo-Nazi followers didn’t have blue check marks, and he wrecked Twitter, wasted $40-plus billion all to make a revolution of the blue check marks.
Brown: Yeah. I think they’re also obsessed with profile too. I mean, people always want what they haven’t got, so it’s not enough just to be an obscure billionaire, you know? You also want to have a podcast that someone listens to. I mean, they put out their own YouTube interview things and, like, their Christmas-card list listens to it, if you know what I mean. I mean, it’s nothing; nobody listens.
布朗：是的。我认为他们也迷恋个人资料。我的意思是，人们总是想要他们没有得到的东西，所以要成为一个晦涩的亿万富翁还不够，你知道吗？您还希望有一个人听的播客。我的意思是，他们发表了自己的YouTube采访内容，如果您知道我的意思，他们的圣诞贺卡列表会听。我的意思是，没什么；没有人听。
And that is, for them, I think, a very galling thing. Of course, it’s even more so when they think about going into politics, because, as we saw with Mike Bloomberg—bam! If you are a billionaire who goes into politics, all of a sudden, you are grounded with a total sort of jolt because people are finally telling you what they think about you, right? I mean, nobody ever tells you what you think about them if they’re really, really rich.
这就是我认为，这是一件非常艰巨的事情。当然，当他们考虑参与政治时，这甚至更是如此，因为正如我们与迈克·彭博（Mike Bloomberg）所看到的那样！如果您是一名亿万富翁，突然间，您就会完全震惊，因为人们终于告诉您他们对您的看法，对吗？我的意思是，如果他们真的非常富有，没有人告诉您您对它们的看法。
I did actually ask a billionaire friend of mine—who I like very much, who’s actually very smart, very sort of low-key, whatever—I just said to him, How did money change you? Because I’m rather obsessed with this moment. Like, what is the pivot moment when they lose it, when a person who is a very hardworking, driven guy turns into this other creature. And I said to him, What was the tip? What was the thing that really changed—money changed for you? And he said, It wasn’t that money changed me. It changed them. He said, It changed the way people responded to me, and that was the difference. It’s like, Now everyone I meet wants something from me, and I know that the conversation is really concealing what they really want from me, which is something, which is not just my conversation, my company, my whatever. It’s, I really want you to give me money for my charity, my this, my that; get me a job. So I think that makes them feel extremely insecure, and that makes them only want to mix with one another too.
我确实问了我的一个亿万富翁朋友 - 我非常喜欢谁，实际上非常聪明，非常低调，无论如何 - 我只是对他说，钱如何改变你？因为我对这一刻很着迷。就像，当他们失去它的枢轴时刻是什么，当一个非常努力，有驱动的家伙变成另一个生物的人。我对他说，小费是什么？真正改变的事情是什么 - 为您改变了？他说，这不是钱改变了我。它改变了他们。他说，这改变了人们对我的回应方式，这就是不同。就像，现在我遇到的每个人都想要我的东西，我知道谈话确实在掩盖他们真正想要的东西，这是一些东西，这不仅是我的谈话，我的公司，我的一切。是的，我真的希望您为我的慈善机构，我的这个，我的慈善机构捐钱。找我一份工作。因此，我认为这会使他们感到非常不安全，这使他们也只想彼此混合。
Frum: Yeah, so you have this phenomena where, Yeah, I’ve worked hard; I’ve done these things. I mean, it’s nice if they have real achievements delivering real goods and services. This is where Jeff Bezos is a kind of different cat from some of the others. I mean, the world really is a better place because of Jeff Bezos. I’m not sure the world is a better place because of Mark Zuckerberg, and I’m pretty sure that the world is a—
弗鲁姆：是的，所以你有这种现象，是的，我努力工作。我做了这些事情。我的意思是，如果他们在提供真正的商品和服务方面取得了真正的成就，那就太好了。这就是杰夫·贝佐斯（Jeff Bezos）与其他一些猫不同的地方。我的意思是，由于杰夫·贝佐斯（Jeff Bezos），世界确实是一个更好的地方。由于马克·扎克伯格（Mark Zuckerberg），我不确定世界是一个更好的地方，而且我很确定世界是一个 -
Brown: Oh, my God, no.
布朗：哦，我的上帝，不。
Frum: And I’m pretty sure the world is a worst place because of all the crypto billionaires.
弗鲁姆：而且我很确定世界是最糟糕的地方，因为所有加密亿万富翁。
Brown: Yeah, without doubt.
布朗：是的，毫无疑问。
Frum: So there are actual social negatives, unlike Bezos. Unlike people like the people who built iron and steel. But then they arrive at the point where they say, I’ve got some thoughts about Ukraine. I’ve got some thoughts about the origin of the COVID virus. I’ve got some thoughts about how universities should be run. And most people listen, and they think, You’re full of shit. You don’t know anything.
弗鲁姆：所以与贝佐斯不同，有实际的社会负面影响。与像建造铁和钢的人一样。但是后来他们到达了他们说的点，我对乌克兰有一些想法。我对Covid病毒的起源有一些想法。我对应该如何跑步有一些想法。大多数人都在听，他们认为，您充满了狗屎。你什么都不知道。
Brown: Yes, but they don’t tell them that. They don’t tell them that.
布朗：是的，但是他们不告诉他们。他们不告诉他们。
Frum: Your thoughts are worthless. You got a C in grade 10 chemistry; don’t tell us where the COVID vaccine virus came from. You can’t possibly—even if you’re right, it’s just a lucky guess. You have no thoughts worth hearing on Ukraine. Your thoughts are negatively worth hearing. And they get angry: Why don’t people listen to me, and what’s the point of all this money if I can’t get people to listen attentively and respectfully to my stupid views?
弗鲁姆：你的想法一文不值。您在10级化学中获得了C；不要告诉我们，卷疫苗病毒来自何处。您不可能 - 即使您是对的，这只是一个幸运的猜测。您没有值得听到乌克兰的想法。您的想法值得听。他们生气了：为什么人们不听我的话，如果我不能让人们认真和尊重我的愚蠢观点，所有这些钱有什么意义？
Brown: But you know what? The only other thing that just really makes me nuts, actually, is if I just feel that these billionaires have no respect, essentially, for what we do, for instance. They have no respect for it, and in the same way that Trump has absolutely no respect for what people do in these agencies or in these—it’s like they just have no respect for it. They have respect for someone who may be an absolute sort of fool but who has $150 million, which he then makes into $1 billion, but they have no respect for someone who understands science or health or who writes great sentences or whatever. Journalists are really at the—and writers—are at the bottom of the pyramid in terms of having any respect from the digital fortunes in Silicon Valley, as far as I can see.
布朗：但是你知道吗？实际上，唯一真正让我发疯的事情是，如果我只是觉得这些亿万富翁对我们所做的事情没有尊重。他们不尊重它，就像特朗普绝对不尊重这些机构或在这些机构中所做的事情一样，就像他们不尊重它一样。他们尊重一个可能是绝对傻瓜但拥有1.5亿美元的人，然后他赚了10亿美元，但他们不尊重了解科学或健康或写得很好的人或其他任何人的人。据我所知，记者实际上是在金字塔的底部和作家处于金字塔的底部。
Frum: I don’t care whether they respect me or not. I don’t care what their opinions are—my feelings are hard to hurt. But what happens with a lot of these people—Trump is an example of this—is you’ve got the world’s leading expert on gravity in front of you, and maybe he’s not a billionaire, so you don’t respect him, and you lift a bowling ball over your head and say, I’m about to drop this bowling ball, and watch it float over my head.
弗鲁姆：我不在乎他们是否尊重我。我不在乎他们的意见是什么 - 我的感觉很难伤害。但是，许多人（Trump就是一个例子）发生的事情是您面前的重力专家，也许他不是亿万富翁，所以您不尊重他，所以您不尊重他，然后您将保龄球踢在头上，说，我要放下这个保龄球，看着它浮在我的头上。
Brown: (Laughs.)
布朗：（笑）。
Frum: And the world’s leading expert on gravity says, That’s not what’s going to happen. Release that bowling ball. It is going to fall on your head and inflict brain damage.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：全球重力专家说，这不是会发生的事情。释放保龄球。它将落在您的头上并造成脑部损伤。
Nonsense, you don’t have a billion dollars. Your opinion is not worth hearing. Watch me hoist this bowling ball. And that is what Trump has been doing on tariffs. That’s what his henchmen have been doing on vaccines. I mean, this administration, one of the enduring consequences of the Trump administration is they have paused research on Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s at a time when we’re about to make huge breakthroughs, I’m told by people who do know what they’re talking about. Huge breakthroughs in these areas.
胡说八道，您没有十亿美元。您的意见不值得听。看着我升起这个保龄球。这就是特朗普一直在关税上所做的事情。这就是他的同伴在疫苗上所做的。我的意思是，本届政府是特朗普政府的持久后果之一是，他们在我们要取得巨大突破的时候对阿尔茨海默氏症和帕金森氏症的研究暂停了研究。在这些领域的巨大突破。
And look—from the point of view of 80 years from now, no one 80 years from now will care whether the cure comes in 2030 or 2040. But if you’re one of the people who is fated to develop the condition between 2030 and 2040, it’s going to matter a lot to you that Trump shoved off the discovery of the cure by eight years or a decade.
看看 - 从现在起80年的观点来看，从现在起的80年起，没有一个人会关心治疗是在2030年还是2040年来的。但是，如果您是一个计划在2030年至2040年之间发展状况的人之一，那么对您来说，特朗普将疗法的发现降至八年或十年。
Brown: Well, I think it might actually be affecting us in 80 years, only because you lose a whole generation of talent. I know that scientists, particularly, are feeling this, that these people who’ve now just been scattered to the winds, you don’t just get them back. You don’t just blow a whistle and say, Okay, Trump era is over. Come back. Reassemble. To sort of really crater these institutions, it’s really hard to rebuild them.
布朗：好吧，我认为这实际上可能会在80年内影响我们，只是因为您失去了一整代人才。我知道科学家尤其是感觉到的，这些人现在散布在风中，您不仅会让他们回来。您不仅会吹口哨说，好吧，特朗普时代结束了。回来。重新组装。为了真正的这些机构，很难重建它们。
I mean, any of us have seen that with anything, even in the entertainment industry. If you completely trash HBO, you know what I mean? It’s like, that was a crown jewel of television, and to reassemble this amazing cadre of people that was, like, one person at a time, one person at a time. This person who was a foil to this person, this person who really balanced that person. It’s a very delicate calibration when you build a talent empire, as it were, and I think it’s very hard to bring it back.
我的意思是，即使在娱乐业中，我们中的任何人都看到了任何事情。如果您完全垃圾HBO，您知道我的意思吗？就像那是电视的皇冠上的珠宝，并重新组装了这个令人惊叹的人，就像一个人一次一个人一样。这个人是这个人的箔纸，这个人真正平衡了那个人。当您建立一个人才帝国时，这是一个非常微妙的校准，我认为很难将其带回。
Frum: You may get back the person at the peak of his or her career who’s migrated to the University of British Columbia or gone to France.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：您可能会在他或她的职业生涯的顶峰中撤回该人，该职业生涯迁移到不列颠哥伦比亚大学或去了法国。
Brown: Right.
布朗：对。
Frum: You may be able to summon them back, but the person who is today 23 or 24, just finishing a star undergraduate in biology and is deciding where should they apply their talent? Should they apply them to pure research, or should they go and work, make a better antihistamine for a big pharmaceutical company? Not that making a better antihistamine is not a valid way to spend your life, and it certainly pays more. But the purpose of government funding was to say, In addition to antihistamines, we also need cures for Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s, and here’s a very satisfying, maybe not as lucrative, but very satisfying and fulfilling career with enormous recognition at the peak, should you succeed. And those people will make different choices.
弗鲁姆：您也许可以召集他们，但是今天23岁或24岁的人只是在生物学领域完成了明星的本科生，并且决定他们应该在哪里运用自己的才能？他们应该将它们应用于纯研究中，还是应该去工作，为一家大型制药公司做出更好的抗组胺药？并不是说制造更好的抗组胺药并不是花生一生的有效方法，而且肯定会付出更多。但是，政府资金的目的是说，除了抗组胺药外，我们还需要治愈帕金森氏症和阿尔茨海默氏症的治疗方法，这是一个非常令人满意的，也许不那么有利可图，但在峰会上获得了极大的认可，这是一个非常令人满意和令人满意的职业。这些人会做出不同的选择。
I want ask you—slightly different topic. You were there in the days when—I remember this from the Vanity Fair Diaries—when Donald Trump was fun, speaking of people who have changed. And Danielle and I had—my wife, Danielle, and I had—a brief experience. She sat beside him at a dinner in 2006, just before The Apprentice, and described him as a lot of fun. I mean, kind of a creep and a jerk, but a lot of fun. Where did we lose that? What did we do to forfeit fun Donald Trump?
我想问你 - 有些不同的话题。在唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）很有趣的时候，我从《虚荣公平的日记》（Vanity Fair Diaries）记住这一点时，您就在那里。丹妮尔（Danielle）和我的妻子丹妮尔（Danielle）和我有一个简短的经历。她在学徒前的2006年在他的晚餐中坐在他旁边，并形容他很有趣。我的意思是，有点蠕动和混蛋，但很有趣。我们在哪里失去了？我们为没收有趣的唐纳德·特朗普做了什么？
Brown: Well, I mean, look—he was this big brash, kind of, like, caricature New Yorker. Gold towers, big. I mean, first time I met him was at a lunch that his wife, Ivana at the time, had given. It was some kind of her seasonal holiday lunch. And I was next to Trump. We had a person in between each other—like, he had a boring partner for lunch, and I had a boring partner—so we ended up sort of talking across at each other. And he was going like, Oh, you know, I went to the opera. You know, Ivana dragged me to the opera last night. I mean, never again. Pavarotti, who cares? You know, It was five hours. And he made me laugh. It was funny. He was saying the things—which he’s always been good at—that people think but don’t say, right? Trashing the opening of the Met with Pavarotti, some might not want to do that in that circle of people, but he didn’t care, and he was sort of shouting across the table. So he was entertaining.
布朗：嗯，我的意思是，看 - 他是如此大的勇敢，有点像漫画纽约客。金塔，大。我的意思是，我第一次见到他是在他的妻子伊万当时给予的午餐。这是她的季节性假期午餐。我在特朗普旁边。我们彼此之间有一个人 - 就像他有一个无聊的午餐伴侣，我有一个无聊的伴侣 - 所以我们最终互相交谈。他要去，哦，你知道，我去了歌剧。你知道，伊万娜昨晚把我拖到了歌剧。我的意思是，再也不会。Pavarotti，谁在乎？你知道，那是五个小时。他让我发笑。这很有趣。他说的话 - 他一直都很擅长 - 人们认为但不说吧？在与帕瓦罗蒂（Pavarotti）的大都会（Met）打开的情况下，有些人可能不想在那一圈的人中这样做，但他不在乎，他在桌子上大喊大叫。所以他很有趣。
But things began to change, I think, with him, first of all, the first time the finances started to go south, when he had his first bankruptcy. I mean, our coverage, which, until then, had been of this funny, glitzy—like one of those magazine pieces about the life and times of Donald Trump, with the gold interior decoration, and the parties and all the rest. And we assigned Marie Brenner to go do a piece about him at that moment of bankruptcy, and she wrote a very tough piece, and she actually had the wonderful detail that keeps getting brought out even now, which is that he had a copy of Hitler’s speeches. And he hated the piece—absolutely hated it. And we were all at this dinner at Tavern on the Green, and she was sitting there in an evening dress, and as he passed by behind her, she felt something cold happening. And she turned around, and Donald Trump had emptied a glass of wine down her back.
但是，我认为，情况开始发生变化，首先，当他第一次破产时，财务状况第一次开始向南走。我的意思是，我们的报道是这个有趣，闪闪发光的著作，就像那些关于唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）的生活和时代的杂志之一，带有金色的内饰装饰，派对以及所有其余的杂志。在那一刻，我们指派玛丽·布伦纳（Marie Brenner）去做一件关于他的事情，她写了一篇非常艰难的文章，她实际上有一个奇妙的细节，即使现在也一直被带出来，这就是他有希特勒演讲的副本。他讨厌这件作品 - 绝对讨厌它。我们都在绿色的小酒馆吃晚餐，她正穿着一件晚礼服坐在那里，当他在她身后经过时，她感到有些寒冷。她转过身来，唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）将一杯葡萄酒倒在她的背上。
Okay, so that was a moment when you saw how incredibly, outrageously vindictive he could be when crossed, and he gave her this terrible look. I do actually think that the real darkness set in—and people have said it before—but I was there that evening, and I saw I saw it when Obama roasted him at the famous White House correspondents’ dinner just before he really decided to run. I was sitting behind Trump that evening, behind his table, and I saw his neck go from pale salmon to sort of flaming magenta in his absolute fury. And I think that what really angered him was not just this elite cool, effing—you know, Obama, like, bringing him down—but just this room full of what, as he saw it, the liberal media, all laughing. All laughing at him, you know? And with Obama.
好的，那是您看到他在交叉时可能会变得多么令人难以置信，令人难以置信的辩护，他给了她这个可怕的表情。实际上，我确实认为真正的黑暗陷入了困境 - 人们以前已经说过，但是那天晚上我在那儿，当奥巴马在他真正决定跑步之前，奥巴马在著名的白宫通讯员的晚餐中烤了他时，我看到了它。那天晚上，我坐在特朗普后面，在他的桌子后面，我看到他的脖子从苍白的鲑鱼变成了他绝对愤怒的洋红色。而且我认为真正激怒他的东西不仅是这个精英的酷酷，令人兴奋，而且您知道，奥巴马，就像使他失望 - 而且只有这个房间里充满了他所看到的自由媒体，全都在笑。所有人都在嘲笑他，你知道吗？和奥巴马。
And I think he went back to his hotel, and I think he just pounded the pillows and he went, I mean, bananas, I’m sure, that night. Because he has such a wound in him, from God knows what—hideous potty training and parental abuse. But there’s a real wound in Trump when it comes to humiliation. I mean, he is so fragile when it comes to that sense of being humiliated, which perhaps came from school. I mean, he went off to that military school, and maybe he was constantly bullied. Who knows? I don’t think we’ve really got to the bottom of, as it were, the real rosebud of Trump’s huge vulnerability to any kind of criticism and how he goes into a crouch position if he sees anything coming at him that he views as disrespect.
而且我认为他回到了他的酒店，我想他只是砸了枕头，我的意思是，香蕉，我敢肯定，那天晚上。因为他的伤口很伤心，所以从上帝那里知道什么 - 便盆训练和父母的虐待。但是，在屈辱方面，特朗普有一个真正的伤口。我的意思是，当涉及到羞辱的感觉时，他是如此脆弱，这可能来自学校。我的意思是，他去了那所军事学校，也许他一直被欺负。谁知道？我认为，如果特朗普对任何形式的批评的巨大脆弱性，以及如果他认为任何事情对他的任何看法，他认为他认为不尊重的事情，那么我们就不会真正陷入巨大的批评的真正玫瑰花。
And I think that’s sort of really when he went really seriously dark, and he’s got darker and darker because he essentially then needed to find his tribe once and for all. And that tribe was people who felt like him, who felt humiliated. And that was obviously the MAGA genesis. Those people who had been humiliated, they felt, by the elite who were constantly condescending to them. I think they’re not wrong. And once he’d found his tribe, I think that he saw the actual political opening to exploit that tribe, as he has gone on to do ever since.
而且我认为当他真的很黑暗时，这确实是一种，而且他变得越来越黑暗，因为他本质上需要一劳永逸地找到自己的部落。那个部落是感觉到他的人，感到羞辱。那显然就是杂志的创世纪。他们认为，那些受到不断屈服于他们的精英的羞辱的人。我认为他们没有错。一旦找到了自己的部落，我认为他看到了利用该部落的实际政治开放，因为他从那以后就一直在做。
Frum: Well, the world changed around him. I mean, Donald Trump has been running for president since 1987.
弗鲁姆：好吧，世界改变了他。我的意思是，唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）自1987年以来一直竞选总统。
Brown: Yeah.
布朗：是的。
Frum: He seriously explored running in 1988. He took out those big ads in all the newspapers about how we were being ripped off by foreigners. He thought very hard about it in the year 2000. In 2011, people forget this, but he was going into the 2012 cycle for a brief moment—not such a brief moment, a few weeks—the front-runner ahead of Mitt Romney, the man who eventually prevailed. And I think it was in that cycle that he went with the birther lie, and that’s what provoked Obama’s derision. But it wasn’t that he hadn’t been thinking about it to that point.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：他在1988年认真探索了跑步。他在所有报纸上都取出了有关我们如何被外国人剥夺的大广告。他在2000年对此非常努力。在2011年，人们忘记了这一点，但他正进入2012年周期的短暂时刻 - 并非如此短暂的时刻，几个星期 - 比最终胜利的男子米特·罗姆尼（Mitt Romney）领先。而且我认为正是在那个周期中，他与Birther的谎言一起去了，这就是奥巴马嘲笑的原因。但这并不是他还没有考虑到那时。
Brown: Right.
布朗：对。
Frum: He didn’t think about it very hard.
弗鲁姆：他并不是很难考虑。
Brown: No. He had.
布朗：不，他有。
Frum: Then he decided against the 2012 cycle. He didn’t decide it against facing an incumbent, and then entered in 2015. And the world was ready for him. Again, what we forget about that 2015 cycle—he declares in, I think, June of 2015. By mid-July, he’s in first place—July of 2015. And although all the wise people, including me, said, This can’t last. This is too crazy. He’s too absurd, he stayed in first place through the whole race, except for one brief period in the late fall of 2015, when Ben Carson was briefly in first place (was also not a very plausible choice either). But there was no point in the 2015–2016 cycle when the leadership of the party was not in the hands of someone who, a generation ago, had been regarded as laughably unfit to lead a party into a presidential election.
弗鲁姆：然后他决定反对2012年周期。他没有决定反对面对现任人，然后在2015年进入。全世界已经为他做好了准备。同样，我们忘记了2015年周期 - 他认为，我认为，2015年6月。到7月中旬，他是2015年7月的第一名。这太疯狂了。他太荒谬了，他在整个比赛中排名第一，除了2015年秋末的短暂时期，当时本·卡森（Ben Carson）短暂地排名第一（也不是一个非常合理的选择）。但是，在2015 - 2016年周期中，党的领导没有被一代人被认为是不适合带领党参加总统大选的人的手中没有意义的。
Brown: Absolutely. But I think some of that, as well, is the complete switch into the entertainment culture that America now is, right? Of which he played a big role, in a sense, with The Apprentice. But I think in those years, America became more and more addicted, if you like, to the reality shows—the Kardashians, all of this kind of celebration of glitz that he represented.
布朗：绝对。但是我认为其中的一些是完全转向美国现在的娱乐文化，对吗？从某种意义上说，他在学徒方面扮演了重要角色。但是我认为，在那几年里，美国越来越上瘾，如果您愿意的话，在现实节目中 - 卡戴珊（Kardashians），这是他所代表的所有这种庆祝活动。
You know, I remember when his first kind of Republican convention, when we’d had Hillary Clinton: amazing, every star in the world. It was an incredibly sort of glamorous [Democratic] convention. And his kind of convention was such a—he couldn’t even get any big stars to perform, and so on, and it looked like it was this kind of hokey, pathetic, Republican convention. But the Trump plane lands, and streaming across the tarmac is the Trump family with him. And there they all are with their long, blonde hair and him with his red tie and their plane saying Trump.
您知道，我记得他的第一个共和党大会是当我们有希拉里·克林顿（Hillary Clinton）时：惊人的，世界上每个明星。这是一次令人难以置信的迷人[民主]惯例。他的惯例是如此 - 他甚至无法表演任何大明星，依此类推，看起来像是这种hoke，可悲的共和党大会。但是，特朗普飞机降落，跨过停机坪的流媒体是特朗普家族。在那里，他们都带着长长的金发，他的红色领带和他们的飞机说特朗普。
And I just thought, Oh my God. He’s going win, because in a sense, they were like what everybody wanted to be in that moment. I mean, Hillary Clinton’s fans sort of thought that every woman wanted to be essentially like a Hillary Clinton, you know, hardworking. No, a lot of women want to sit by the pool in dark glasses, like Melania. I think more women want to be like Melania than they probably did want to be like Hillary Clinton. That’s what they’re looking to be. I mean, if you’re lucky, you get that money, and you have that plane, and you have a husband who’s got big shoulders and a red tie.
我只是想，天哪。他要赢了，因为从某种意义上说，它们就像那一刻每个人都想成为的东西。我的意思是，希拉里·克林顿（Hillary Clinton）的粉丝们想到，每个女人都想像希拉里·克林顿（Hillary Clinton）一样努力工作。不，很多女人想坐在梅拉尼亚（Melania）的黑眼镜旁坐在游泳池旁。我认为，比他们想像希拉里·克林顿（Hillary Clinton）一样想像梅拉尼亚（Melania）的女性要多。这就是他们想要成为的东西。我的意思是，如果您幸运的话，您会得到这笔钱，并且拥有那架飞机，并且有一个丈夫，他的肩膀很大，领带很红。
And the whole thing was just such a kind of fantastic sort of stereotype of a certain kind of aspiration. And it was very powerful to see actually.
整个事情就是这种愿望的一种奇妙的刻板印象。实际上看到它非常强大。
Frum: It’s like a nightmare version of a kind of star power. Like, to many, it’s repelling. You were the great student of American star power, and you’ve written very vividly about what it felt like when even pre-presidential Bill Clinton entered a room, that you suddenly knew that someone was in the room. Do you, as you look around the world today, see in the realm of politics, people in the nonincumbent sphere who have that kind of light-up-the-room star power.
弗鲁姆：这就像一种噩梦版本的恒星力量。就像许多人一样，这是被击退的。您是美国星球势力的伟大学生，您已经写了非常生动地写的关于即使是前总统比尔·克林顿（Bill Clinton）进入房间的感觉，您突然知道有人在房间里。当您在当今世界环游世界时，您是否在政治领域中看到，在非企业领域的人们拥有那种光明的室内明星力量。
Brown: I mean, the only one I think who’s got any real charisma actually is a woman. And that’s Yulia Navalnaya, the widow of Alexei Navalny.
布朗：我的意思是，我认为唯一拥有任何真正的魅力的人实际上是一个女人。那就是Alexei Navalny的遗ow Yulia Navalnaya。
Frum: She’s constitutionally ineligible, unfortunately.
弗鲁姆：不幸的是，她在宪法上没有资格。
Brown: Well, unfortunately she is, but oh my God. I interviewed her in London, in May, and I really didn’t feel I’d met anybody that charismatic since Princess Diana. I mean, she’s like this column of alabaster, with this fire-and-ice kind of feel, that she’s both warm and absolutely sort of sensual in one level and yet also fiercely steely in others, and dressed in this incredible pale, sort of dark blue designer suit. She’s 5'11". I mean, my God, she’s absolutely extraordinary. But no, the idea that she will become president of Russia is very, very remote.
布朗：嗯，不幸的是她是，但是我的上帝。我在五月份在伦敦采访了她，自从戴安娜王妃以来，我真的没有遇到任何人。我的意思是，她就像雪花石膏的这栏一样，有了这种火和冰的感觉，她在一个层面上既温暖又绝对有点感性，但在其他层面上也很强烈，并且穿着这种令人难以置信的苍白，浅色的深蓝色设计师西服。她是5'11“。我的意思是，我的上帝，她绝对是非凡的。但是，不，她将成为俄罗斯总统的想法非常非常遥远。
In terms of the others, as it were, I haven’t seen anyone. I was quite a fan of Macron, but ever since his wife slugged him in the face, his kind of charisma has diminished, as far as I’m concerned. (Laughs.)
就其他人而言，我还没有见过任何人。我是马克龙的粉丝，但是自从他的妻子把他塞在脸上以来，就我而言，他的一种魅力就减少了。（笑。）
We haven’t really seen any star power. I guess Justin Trudeau at a certain point did have it, but now, again, he just feels like, so yesterday’s man. He couldn’t maintain it.
我们还没有真正看到任何明星力量。我猜贾斯汀·特鲁多（Justin Trudeau）确实有它，但是现在，他只是觉得，昨天的男人。他无法维持。
Frum: In this country, anyone that you see that makes your Spidey sense tingle?
弗鲁姆（Frum）：在这个国家，您看到的任何人都会使您的Spidey Sense tingle刺痛吗？
Brown: I mean, I haven’t seen it really. Actually, I was watching the rather good, actually, CNN documentary about the hunt for Osama bin Laden. And I was looking at it and thinking, Oh, Admiral McRaven, why did you never run for office? He is somebody who—he is now a little too old, I think, but talk about charisma. I mean, the guy—and you see him in his white dress suit, and he’s got this baritone voice, but he’s got this incredible, steady, noble, masculine, but not horrible macho, which is quite different from masculine attributes. So I’d love to see somebody like him. But I don’t see that, unless there’s a sort of Admiral McRaven sort of brewing in some place that we don’t really know.
布朗：我的意思是，我还没有看到它。实际上，实际上，我正在观看有关CNN的相当好的纪录片，内容涉及探望乌萨马·本·拉登（Osama bin Laden）。我一直在看它，想着，哦，海军上将麦克拉文，你为什么从不竞选公职？我认为他是一个人 - 他现在已经有点老了，但是谈论魅力。我的意思是，那个家伙 - 你穿着他的白色礼服西服，他有这个男中音的声音，但是他拥有这种令人难以置信，稳定，贵族，男性的，但没有可怕的男子气概，这与男性属性完全不同。所以我很想见到像他这样的人。但是我看不到这一点，除非在某个地方酿造某种海军上将酿造，但我们真的不知道。
I think Wes Moore is very charismatic, but I fear maybe too lightweight. It’s not enough to have just the magnetism. However, if I had to choose magnetism over, Oh, he’s brilliant behind closed doors, but unfortunately, he is not great, forget about it, as far as I’m concerned, because this is an entertainment culture. So if you can’t get up there and get that room magnetized, just don’t even consider it. Like, go to work at the Brookings. Just get out of my face, is what I feel.
我认为韦斯·摩尔（Wes Moore）非常有魅力，但我担心也许太轻了。仅仅具有磁性是不够的。但是，如果我不得不选择磁性，哦，他在闭门造车后面很棒，但是不幸的是，就我而言，他不是很好，忘记了，因为这是一种娱乐文化。因此，如果您不能站在那里并磁化了，那就不要考虑。就像，去布鲁金斯上班。我的感觉就是摆脱我的脸。
Frum: Well, there’s also the problem, as we’ve learned from the Biden experience, when people say of someone, Oh, he’s brilliant behind closed doors, two things may be true: One is he’s genuinely brilliant behind closed doors and it doesn’t show in public, and the other is he’s surrounded by people who lie about him.
弗鲁姆：好吧，正如我们从拜登（Biden）的经历中学到的那样，当人们对某人说，哦，他在闭门造车后面聪明时，这可能是真的：一个是他真正聪明的幕后，这不是公开场合，而另一个是他周围的人包围着他。
Brown: (Laughs.) Well, that’s completely, absolutely true. But think about it. I mean, they always—they said it about so many people, though. Like, it’s funny about Mitt Romney: When you get him off stage, they’ll say. Or Al Gore, He was so different. He wasn’t stiff at all off stage. You know what, it is too bad. I mean, what we’re all looking at is you on stage, pal. And if you don’t have it, don’t run.
布朗：（笑。）好吧，这是完全正确的。但是请考虑一下。我的意思是，他们总是 - 他们对很多人说了这么多。就像，关于米特·罗姆尼（Mitt Romney）很有趣：当您让他脱离舞台时，他们会说。或艾尔·戈尔（Al Gore），他是如此不同。他根本没有僵硬的舞台。你知道什么，太糟糕了。我的意思是，我们都在看着你在舞台上，朋友。如果您没有它，请不要跑步。
Frum: Well, we all watched the Mitt Romney documentary and saw how winning and charming he indeed could be in private. But there’s a problem, which is: We have this bias that the private self is the true self, and the public self is a construction. But if you’re seeking a public career, your public self is a true self. So, you know, it may be that some of these people around Trump are inwardly conscientious, decent people, which is lovely for their families and loved ones and those who rely on them personally. But if in your public role, if you behaved in an unethical way, if you lie in public, then from a public perspective, that’s who you are, not the person in private. That’s just a matter of interest to your intimates.
弗鲁姆：好吧，我们所有人都看了米特·罗姆尼（Mitt Romney）的纪录片，并看到了他的胜利和迷人，他确实可以私下来。但是存在一个问题，也就是说：我们有这种偏见，即私人自我是真正的自我，而公众自我是一种结构。但是，如果您正在寻找公共事业，那么您的公共自我就是一个真正的自我。因此，您知道，可能是特朗普周围的一些人是内向的，体面的人，这对他们的家人和亲人以及亲自依靠他们的人都很可爱。但是，如果在您的公开角色中，如果您以一种不道德的方式行事，那么，如果您躺在公开场合，那么从公开的角度来看，那就是您的身份，而不是私人的人。这只是您的亲密关系的兴趣。
Brown: Yeah, I think that’s so true. But I mean, I also do think, though, the performative stuff, you’ve really got to now be very good at it, indeed. I mean, better than you ever—I mean, obviously, we’ve known ever since the sort of JFK–Nixon debate how important it is to be able to be good on television. But now you’ve got to be good in every way. You’ve got to be good at all of it. You have to have that sort of wit that can really genuinely write your own tweets, as it were, because that’s the voice that people believe in. It’s not going to feel true if it’s being written by some sort of campaign aide. You have to be able to do it.
布朗：是的，我认为这是真的。但是我的意思是，我也确实认为表现出色的东西，您现在确实必须擅长于此。我的意思是，比您以往任何时候都更好 - 显然，自肯尼迪（JFK） - 尼克森（Nixon）辩论以来，我们就知道能够在电视上表现出色是多么重要。但是现在，您必须在各个方面变得良好。您一定要擅长。您必须拥有那种真正可以真正写出自己的推文的机智，因为这是人们相信的声音。如果是由某种竞选助手撰写的，那将不会感到真实。您必须能够做到。
I mean, actually, to go back to Alexei Navalny again. Talk about a charismatic leader. He had these incredible performative skills, and he was able to use social media, deployed video. He was a multi-platform, gifted user of the media, essentially. And that’s what I’m sort of looking for. It’s almost like I feel we could teach him about geopolitics. You can have an adviser on the side who tells you that, but you’ve got to be able to sell it to somebody.
我的意思是，实际上，再次回到Alexei Navalny。谈论一个超凡魅力的领导者。他具有这些令人难以置信的表演技巧，并且能够使用社交媒体，部署了视频。本质上，他是媒体的多平台，有才华的用户。这就是我想要的。几乎就像我觉得我们可以教他关于地缘政治。您可以在一边有一个顾问告诉您，但是您必须能够将其出售给某人。
Frum: Well, also, one more thing: He was a genuine hero. And that is something you can’t synthesize, right? Maybe you can teach someone to be charismatic, but you can’t teach someone to be brave and to be great.
弗鲁姆：嗯，还有一件事：他是一个真正的英雄。这是您无法综合的东西，对吗？也许您可以教别人具有超凡魅力，但是您不能教别人勇敢和伟大。
I’m going to end, actually, with—that reminds me of something I want to say about the Tina Brown school of management at the end, which is: I remember one of your sayings about training journalists, and you said, I can teach you to write a lede. I can teach you to write an ending. I can teach you how to edit, but I can’t teach you to see.
实际上，我将结束 - 让我想起我想说的关于蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown）管理学院的话，这是：我记得您关于培训记者的一句话，您说，我说，我可以教您写Lede。我可以教你写结局。我可以教你如何编辑，但我不能教你看。
Brown: Right.
布朗：对。
Frum: And I have thought—I have thought about the sentence a thousand times. I’m sure it’s more than that. And whenever I see young journalists and I’m trying to give them advice, I quote that and just say, You either see things or you don’t see things, and if you don’t see them, you’re never going to learn.
弗鲁姆：我已经想到了 - 我已经考虑了一千次的句子。我敢肯定，这不仅仅是。每当我见到年轻的记者，我想给他们建议时，我都会引用这一点，然后说，您要么看到东西，要么看不到事物，如果您看不到他们，您将永远不会学习。
Brown: Right.
布朗：对。
Frum: And look—accounting is a stable, well-regarded-for, respected profession. You don’t have to do what we do, because not only is there no money, but there’s, in fact, no glamor. (Laughs.)
弗鲁姆：看 - 学会是一个稳定，备受推崇，受人尊敬的职业。您不必做我们做的事情，因为不仅没有钱，而且实际上没有魅力。（笑。）
Frum: Tina, thank you so much. It has been one of the joys and honors of my life to know you.
弗鲁姆：蒂娜，非常感谢。认识您是我一生的欢乐和荣誉之一。
Brown: Thank you. Such fun.
布朗：谢谢。如此有趣。
Frum: Thanks for joining the program.
FRUM：感谢您加入该计划。
Brown: Loved catching up with you. Thank you, David.
布朗：喜欢跟你赶上。谢谢大卫。
[Music]
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Frum: Thanks so much to Tina Brown for joining me today—recorded, as I said, before the strikes on Iran by President Trump. If you appreciated this conversation, I hope you will consider supporting our work by subscribing to The Atlantic, which is the best way to support my work and that of my colleagues at The Atlantic and America’s most important magazine, more important than ever. I hope you will consider joining us there.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：非常感谢蒂娜·布朗（Tina Brown）今天加入我的行列 - 正如我所说，在特朗普总统对伊朗的罢工之前。如果您感谢这次对话，我希望您会考虑通过订阅大西洋来支持我们的工作，这是支持我的工作以及我在大西洋和美国最重要的杂志上的同事的最佳方式，比以往任何时候都更为重要。希望您会考虑加入我们。
Thank you to my friends at the Royal Hotel in Picton, Ontario, for allowing me the hospitality of their board room here. And thanks to all of you. I hope you will like the podcast, subscribe to it, share it in any way you can.
感谢我在安大略省Picton皇家酒店的朋友，感谢我在这里允许他们的董事会房间的款待。感谢你们所有人。希望您喜欢播客，订阅它，以任何方式分享。
And one more personal note: You may have noticed that here in Picton, as in the studio in Washington, over my shoulder, there are always flowers. Those are thanks to my wife, Danielle. Danielle Crittenden Frum, who grows them, cuts them, and arranges them. She’s done that again for me today, and I’m so grateful to her for that, as I am to you for joining this and, I hope, future episodes of The David Frum Show, brought to you by The Atlantic.
还有一个个人注意事项：您可能已经注意到，在Picton，就像在华盛顿的工作室一样，我的肩膀上，总有花朵。这些要感谢我的妻子丹妮尔（Danielle）。丹妮尔·克里滕登·弗鲁姆（Danielle Crittenden Frum），他的成长，剪裁并安排了它们。她今天为我再次做到了这一点，为此，我非常感谢她加入这件事，我希望大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）表演的未来情节是由大西洋带给你的。
[Music]
[音乐]
Frum: This episode of The David Frum Show was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Ebeid is the executive producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
弗鲁姆（Frum）：大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）节目的这一集由纳撒尼尔·弗鲁姆（Nathaniel Frum）制作，并由安德里亚·瓦尔德斯（Andrea Valdez）编辑。它是由戴夫·格林（Dave Grein）设计的。我们的主题是安德鲁·爱德华兹（Andrew M. Edwards）。Claudine Ebeid是Atlantic Audio的执行制片人，Andrea Valdez是我们的执行编辑。
I’m David Frum. Thank you for listening.
我是大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）。谢谢你的聆听。
I also, before we sign off, have to make a correction, an error I made in the last podcast. I referred to Secretary of Defense Esper, who served in the first Trump term. I gave his first name as Michael. It is, in fact, Mark, and I regret that mistake and I correct it here. And thanks to all who brought it to my attention.
在签字之前，我还必须进行更正，这是我在上一个播客中犯的错误。我提到了国防部长埃斯珀（Esper），后者曾在特朗普的第一个任期任职。我以他的名字命名为迈克尔。实际上，这是马克，我很遗憾这个错误，我在这里对其进行了纠正。感谢所有引起我注意的人。
That’s it for The David Frum Show this week. Please join us again next week for another episode of The David Frum Show.
这是本周的大卫·弗鲁姆（David Frum）秀。请下周再次加入我们，参加David Frum Show的另一集。
